WEBVTT

NOTE Machine-generated transcript; not human-reviewed.
NOTE Canonical transcript: https://opentheory.net/transcripts/shinzen-young-interview-stress-equanimity-sensory-clarity/

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And where is Drako? I'm trying to go...

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Okay.

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So, actually, this is not a good idea. I need... Sorry, I'm, uh, I like to have this part nice.

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Sure.

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So that we get a good shot.

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One more perfection.

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And do we want the area exactly at my time?

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I'm sorry, what was that?

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Did you hear me? Do we go on the air exactly at 8 o'clock my time in one minute?

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Yeah, we can, uh, we're actually on air?

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Uh, yeah, it's flexible, just whenever we want to start.

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We're already on the air?

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Yes, yes.

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I got it. Okay, good.

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Okay.

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So, I think this is a good setup for me.

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Um, I'm going to be back in just a second.

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And we'll start up.

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Great.

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Yes, of course.

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It's recorded, right?

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Uh, what do you mean, recorded?

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That Skype chat.

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No, you can't record it.

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You can.

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On Skype?

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Yeah, no.

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Skype for business, yeah.

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We haven't been.

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Maybe we can ask to record a few more.

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Because I think, uh, he's expecting it to be recorded.

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Do you want to put the camera here?

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Yeah, maybe we can.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Thanks.

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Yeah, when he says on the air, it's where he's thinking that we are showing this to

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other people as well at the same time.

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Yeah.

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Not just us.

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I think so.

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We can start recording.

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Okay, great.

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Oh, you can record.

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I always thought you can.

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I never used Skype.

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Yeah, if we can record, we don't need this camera now.

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Yeah, I think so.

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I don't, um, we might need both.

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I mean, just, just in case.

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Yeah.

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So, in theory.

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Well, if we record this, we might as well record ourselves here.

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Oh, yeah.

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It's recording?

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Let's do that.

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It's recording, no?

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Um, I'm not sure.

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It is now.

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It should be.

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Okay, is it?

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It's the red line.

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Oh, yeah, it's true.

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Yeah, it is.

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Cool.

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The red line you see in the corner and the timer.

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Yeah.

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You see?

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Stop recording.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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20 seconds.

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30.

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Cool.

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But we still did the full screen.

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Oh, yeah.

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Stop recording.

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Who is there?

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Animal.

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Wow.

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So, that's done.

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Then let, let, uh, Matija record us then.

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What do you think?

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Us.

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Yes.

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Okay.

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I think Zdravko slept because he's not picking call.

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Shall we wake him?

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Maybe it's good for him.

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No, I think it's fine.

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Okay.

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So, making good knock on his door.

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But, uh, he has a nice question.

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Do you remember his question about the nightmare?

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About the, yeah, about the code.

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Uh, okay.

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Okay.

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Great.

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How are you?

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I am terrific.

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I'm just gonna put a clock here.

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So, I'll have a general idea of what time it is.

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And, uh, it's great to see all you beautiful people in front of me.

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And, uh, I am going to get to do the thing I most like to do, which is, uh, talk to people

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about mindfulness.

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So, just whatever questions you want, feel free.

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Great.

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Thank you.

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Yeah, we're wondering, first of all, how you're,

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your how you usually start your morning and what maybe morning routine you have in terms of

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allowing yourself to go through the stress or stressful day without actually being involved

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in that do you have any special technique or practice that helps you with it well what i do

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do is um something that i call the asia algorithm that's an acronym a s i a

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so is this going to be interpreted of from english into slovene

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or are we are we going in english everything english in english yeah everything in english

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okay great i didn't realize that was the concept

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when i broadcast to russia we translate uh everything uh do you know victor shiriayev

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Yes, yes, we know him. Yeah, so when I do programs with Victor, it takes a long time because he translates, but you're saying we're going to go in English then. Good, that will give me more time, but also I'm going to try to speak slowly and in small sentences.

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So there is a procedure that you can use to make sure that your day is mindful.

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Now I'm going to define mindful as being a kind of awareness when you are

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concentrated, sensorially clear, and you have equanimity. Then we'll say that you're having

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an experience mindfully. So concentration power is the ability to focus on what you want to.

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Sensory clarity is the ability to keep track of what's going on, what's on the inside, what's on the outside, what's visual, what's auditory, what's body.

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Keeping track, inner or outer activation, rest states related to see, hear, feel.

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If we put smell and taste under body, that's sort of our whole sensory experience.

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So the ability to know what you're experiencing with clarity, that's an important awareness skill.

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So concentration, power, the ability to focus on what you want to focus on.

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Sensory clarity, the ability to untangle the strands of experience, what's visual, what's auditory, what's somatic, what's inner, what's outer, and so forth.

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And then there's a quality that I call equanimity, which is the ability to let the senses operate without self-interference.

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So as equanimity goes up.

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Inner friction goes down.

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Or another way to put it is equanimity is the inverse of self-conflict.

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So when you bring those three skills simultaneously to a given sensory experience, then we say you're being mindful.

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So.

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There is a way to structure mindfulness during the day.

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So you ask me, what can I do or what can any other person do to make sure I'll be mindful today?

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So the first thing is try to, as soon as you wake up, strategize about or I'm sorry, analyze the day to come.

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situations for example today my first situation was take a shower my second situation was answer

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some emails my third situation was do this program my after this I have to go to the bank

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after that I have to go to my lab where we're doing research at the University so this is a

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seek I'm sort of analyzing the day into situations and then the next step is and this is as soon as

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good

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part is Why is it looking like this? Some bad connection We

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we don't hear you oh we don't hear you do you hear

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you

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recording maybe it will just when uh when our connection got broke you can uh pass yeah

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Did you sleep well? Excellent. So let's call back.

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Just look around. It's like at that moment when you know he's gonna say something interesting. Yeah.

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And you know it's like this. Surprise!

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Who's using the internet? I'm not using it. I switched off.

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Hi. Hi there.

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Can you hear me?

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Yes.

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yes I can arrange for you to see me I think

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Can you hear me?

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Yes.

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Yes. Okay. Well, I guess.

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Can you hear me?

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Yes.

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Can you hear me?

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Yes.

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Can you hear me?

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Yes.

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Sorry, go ahead.

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If you lose my audio, then I suggest we turn off the video so that it may be a bandwidth issue here, but it sounds like we're okay now, right?

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Yeah.

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Oh.

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Maybe it's not about the recording. Do you think it's recording?

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No.

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No, it's not recording. It's the bandit.

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And maybe it's in his place, what he said. We don't hear you. No. Stop our video. ...for Wi-Fi. Hm? No, stop our video. ...here, the worst place for Wi-Fi. Click on the camera. ...mother, mother, open the side of this building.

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Alright, let's see.

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But do you see that our Wi-Fi connection is strong on your laptop?

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Mike?

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It's strong enough.

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Maybe we can try from the phone?

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Yeah, I think that's gonna be better.

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What do you mean from the phone?

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Call from the phone.

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Okay, I have my camera off.

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Can you hear me okay?

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Yes.

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So let's try audio for now.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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Sorry about that.

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Not sure what the problem is.

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Are you having an okay signal on your end?

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We think so.

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Well, mine sure is.

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Mine shows okay also.

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So let's try it this way and we'll see how it goes.

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Okay, great.

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So I began by defining mindful awareness, three skills working together, concentration,

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clarity, equanimity.

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Now, the way you develop these skills is by doing mindful awareness techniques.

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For example, Ivana, you were at the retreat and you learned see, hear, feel and a bunch

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of other techniques.

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Each of those techniques in general will develop concentration, clarity and equanimity.

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So if you do an exercise, physical exercise, you'll find that you're able to do both.

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You'll find that your strength, endurance and flexibility increase.

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The result of exercise changes the fabric of body.

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Well, the result of physical exercise changes the fabric of the physical body.

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And the result of mindfulness, or we could call it meditation exercise, changes the fabric

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is that it

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of the body.

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It increases the strength of attention.

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And just as body health has these three aspects, strength, endurance, flexibility, attentional

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health has three aspects.

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You're strong in terms of your mind power.

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If you have concentration, sensory

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clarity, and equanimity.

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Equanimity means you don't waste energy fighting with yourself.

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Concentration means you can focus on what you want to focus on.

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And clarity means you're not overwhelmed if too much is going on all at once because you've

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trained yourself to track what part is see, what part is hear, what part is feel, and

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so forth.

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So to develop these basic mindfulness skills, you need to do mindfulness techniques.

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But a mindfulness technique has another side to it.

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It can also serve as a strategy.

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In a certain life situation, I can apply this technique while I'm in that situation.

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And it can help me deal with that situation in one way or another.

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So each mindfulness technique has two mechanisms.

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One is the ability to apply it helps with happiness.

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On one hand, every technique develops concentration, clarity, equanimity.

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So it elevates your base level of mind strength or attention strength.

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On the other hand, the different techniques have you focus on different things and focus

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in different ways.

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and those focusing on different things and in different ways serves as a strategy for dealing with life situations.

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So in order to understand how to be mindful during the day, you have to first understand what mindfulness is.

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We explained that.

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And you also understand how mindfulness is developed.

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Well, you do techniques that increase your base level of concentration, clarity, equanimity.

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But any of those techniques can also be looked upon as a strategy to deal with a life situation.

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So at the beginning of the day,

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now I'm getting back to your original question.

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The original question is, what do I do in the morning to assure a mindful day?

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Well, I do what anyone can do.

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First, I analyze the day to come in terms of situations.

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Some situations last a long time.

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Some are a short time.

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Some are.

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Some are complicated.

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Some are simple.

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Some are pleasant.

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Some are unpleasant.

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Some are a mixture of both.

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Some are neutral.

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So I look at all the situations that will happen from this moment when I opened my eyes to the moment when I close my eyes tonight to go to sleep.

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Among those situations, I decide.

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In which situations am I going to do intentional mindfulness technique?

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It's for most people not reasonable to keep a mindfulness technique intentionally going all day.

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But in some of life situations, you should do.

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An intentional technique.

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At least a little bit each day.

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So I decide where I'm going to put intentional techniques.

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Usually that means at least 10 minutes in the morning early when I just do pure formal practice of some sort.

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So that's my formal practice situation.

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Then there'll be other situations in the day.

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For example, in order what comes right now, I'm giving a presentation.

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I'm not implementing an intentional technique during this presentation.

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I'm just giving

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the presentation. But when I'm done, I'm going to walk to the bank. That walk will take me a half hour. I'm going to do an intentional meditation technique during that walk.

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After that, I'm going to ride to the lab. During that bus ride to the lab, I'm also going to do an intentional technique.

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When I arrive at the lab, I'm going to be talking to other colleagues in our group.

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I'm going to do micro hits of feel good, which is like focusing on the pleasant emotion of being with those people.

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When I'm done with the lab meeting, I'm coming back here and I'm doing some research.

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I won't be doing an intentional technique at that time.

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So, you can see what I'm doing. I'm analyzing the day into situations.

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Then I decide in which situations I'm going to intentionally meditate.

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Usually it's simple situations like taking a walk or enjoying being friendly with other people.

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Let me ask you, has my signal been okay?

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Yes, we hear everything very well.

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So, do you want to take a chance and go to audio, to video or just keep with what we've got?

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Let's try.

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Okay, we turned on our video.

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Okay, and if you lose me, then we'll just have to go back to the video.

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But you'll recall and we'll go back to audio only.

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So, you analyze the day in terms of situations.

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Then you strategize in which situation are you going to do intentional practice and what technique.

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And the technique will often be a strategy that's good for that situation.

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For example, when I'm with coworkers and we're talking, we're going to have lunch.

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We're going to discuss things.

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It makes sense that I would be radiating loving kindness to everyone in the background as an intentional technique.

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When I do a walk, everything is very simple.

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So, usually I'm doing, I'm focusing on expansion and contraction as my technique,

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which is actually a very deep and demanding technique relating to flow of a certain sort.

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Usually I'm focusing on that in the simple situation of doing walking.

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And so, then at the end of the day, so you strategize.

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And then still at the beginning of the day, you sort of motivate yourself.

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Here's why you remember why it's important at least occasionally during the day while I'm moving,

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while I'm doing something that's an action.

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So, I'm not just doing it for the sake of life.

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I've also got some intentional practice that I'm bringing into my ordinary life.

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So, I motivate myself and that's inspire, A-S-I, I for inspire.

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And then at the end of the day, the final A of A-S-I-A or Asia is I assess.

295
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What did I follow through on in terms of strategies?

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Which ones did I actually do?

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What was the effect?

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What can I do better tomorrow?

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Or how do I want to build on this tomorrow, etc.

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That's how you can end the day just as you're going to sleep.

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If each day you go through the procedure upon waking, analyze the day, then, I'm sorry,

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analyze the day, then strategize what techniques in what mode of practice, formal, informal,

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what's the focus range, what's the instruction set.

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These are the dimensions that determine a technique.

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So, what technique in which situation and then like here's why I want to do that.

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Here's what I learned yesterday.

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Here's what I hope to learn today.

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Inspire.

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Look back.

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Assess.

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And then you're set to build for the next day.

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Those four steps.

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If a person does them every day, that

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will guarantee that they have a component of practice that I call life practice.

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If they also do occasional retreats, then they have the pillar called retreat practice.

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And if you have those two pillars, plus you're able to get support and understand about giving support,

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then you have all of the four pillars of mindfulness practice.

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And it will be highly likely that you will be not 10% happier, but by the end of your life,

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10 times happier than you could have been otherwise.

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So long answer to a short question.

321
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Amazing answer. I think that's a life strategy.

322
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Actually, how to really improve the life happiness in the long run.

323
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So, yeah, I'm impressed, actually.

324
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Yeah, that's absolutely fantastic.

325
00:26:08.140 --> 00:26:14.020
I was wondering, what do you think stress is in the brain?

326
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Wow.

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That is a science.

328
00:26:24.820 --> 00:26:38.860
It is also maybe a speculative question.

329
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Right.

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So, a science answer to that, I am not prepared to give,

331
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because I would have to look at the different ways in which,

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stress is defined in neuroscience.

333
00:27:00.380 --> 00:27:13.600
And, you know, this is very interesting, because very seldom do I get asked a question that is a new question for me.

334
00:27:14.260 --> 00:27:19.420
I almost always get asked a question that I've been asked a hundred times.

335
00:27:20.100 --> 00:27:23.420
So I have very facile answers, as you saw.

336
00:27:23.520 --> 00:27:23.820
Right.

337
00:27:24.220 --> 00:27:28.020
All you have to do is like, press the button and I'm off.

338
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I'm a, I don't know if you could see, but it says magic robot.

339
00:27:32.500 --> 00:27:33.160
Oh, okay.

340
00:27:34.540 --> 00:27:35.100
Fantastic.

341
00:27:35.600 --> 00:27:40.260
So you just turn him on and he'll give you these answers.

342
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And he's a robot and he's magic, because he's studied for decades and decades.

343
00:27:45.260 --> 00:27:46.280
He's a nice guy.

344
00:27:46.640 --> 00:27:48.660
Um, that's my magic robot.

345
00:27:49.060 --> 00:27:54.080
But this is a new question that I don't have a robot for.

346
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All right.

347
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And I will therefore have to investigate it because mindfulness-based stress reduction, MBSR, is the other main school of modern mindfulness besides my system.

348
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MBSR and my system, Unified Mindfulness, are both modern mindfulness.

349
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We're both developed interacting with science.

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And because John has used stress in the name of his program, I would have to see how science has decided to define stress.

351
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And so I would not give an answer to what is stress in the brain without doing some more research, actually.

352
00:28:45.940 --> 00:28:49.360
But now you've inspired me to do that research.

353
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I think I can answer you in a speculative way.

354
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Please.

355
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By that I mean I can look at my own experience, look at things that I would say are stress, and then sort of give you a subjective view of what might be going on there.

356
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So let me see what I would come up with.

357
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It seems to me that one component of stress, whenever we would say someone is under stress, we would say that they are having an unpleasant experience of their mind and their body.

358
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So one thing we can say about stress.

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I think is that it's a specific instance of an unpleasant mind-body

360
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state.

361
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So that's stress as a sensory experience.

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Then there, whenever we think about stress, I think we not only are aware that it can

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be a sensory experience, but we may be thinking about what causes the stress.

364
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And I think those are called stressors.

365
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So there might be external circumstances that trigger this unpleasant sensory event of stress.

366
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So obviously one way to reduce stress is to change the external stressors.

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So you reduce those.

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that uncomfortable experience of being stressed.

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But I would say that another way to reduce stress is through having equanimity with that uncomfortable sensory experience.

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Because I think that the perceived suffering that you get from that uncomfortable sensory mind-body state is not a function only of the external stressors.

371
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It's also a function of how much you fight with the sensory event of stress.

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So by training yourself.

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To fight, not fight, with the mental image, mental talk, emotional body sensation, and physical body sensation.

374
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Those are the four components, sensory components, that potentially are present when you're having the experience of stress.

375
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So an external circumstance.

376
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Can cause stress.

377
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However, if you have the equanimity skill and you don't fight with the mental image, mental talk, physical body sensations, and emotional body sensations of the stress.

378
00:32:43.240 --> 00:32:49.160
Then that stress experience will cause you less and less suffering.

379
00:32:50.600 --> 00:33:06.660
And equanimity is to the consciousness engine as oil is to the engine in your automobile.

380
00:33:07.200 --> 00:33:14.500
So when you lubricate the automobile, it has two effects.

381
00:33:14.500 --> 00:33:28.740
It reduces unnecessary heat and it frees up energy that is wasted in friction that is dissipated.

382
00:33:28.820 --> 00:33:35.180
It saves on your use of fuel because you're using the fuel more efficiently.

383
00:33:35.640 --> 00:33:44.480
So I would say analogously, when you bring the skill of equanimity,

384
00:33:44.500 --> 00:33:57.040
to the mind-body state of stress, then that stress causes less suffering.

385
00:33:59.940 --> 00:34:06.060
And also does not waste life energy.

386
00:34:06.440 --> 00:34:13.000
Because remember, equanimity is the reciprocal or inverse of

387
00:34:13.000 --> 00:34:13.680
stress.

388
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So when you bring the skill of equanimity to the mind-body state of stress,

389
00:34:14.500 --> 00:34:21.400
then you are bringing the self-interference or the piston grinding against the cylinder friction

390
00:34:22.070 --> 00:34:24.340
in the consciousness engine.

391
00:34:24.720 --> 00:34:32.620
So when you bring equanimity to the actual mind-body state of being stressed, as opposed

392
00:34:32.620 --> 00:34:41.340
to which is a sensory experience, which is in contrast to the objective circumstances

393
00:34:41.710 --> 00:34:43.400
that create the stress.

394
00:34:44.500 --> 00:34:49.400
Which could be circumstances in the world or your health circumstances.

395
00:34:50.150 --> 00:34:56.340
Your body can be stressed because of lifestyle decisions you've made and so forth.

396
00:34:56.600 --> 00:35:00.000
So what happens then is, since

397
00:35:00.380 --> 00:35:09.660
the equanimity is like lubricating the engine, it has the same two effects as oil in an automobile.

398
00:35:10.200 --> 00:35:21.260
The first effect is less wasted energy dissipated, so more efficient use of life fuel.

399
00:35:21.860 --> 00:35:25.640
And the second effect is reduction of heating of the engine.

400
00:35:25.640 --> 00:35:34.140
Now what happens if the engine heats, it doesn't function well, and if it heats too much, it actually gets damaged.

401
00:35:34.620 --> 00:35:46.980
Well, it turns out that when you have a mind-body experience of stress, and you don't have equanimity, there's a lot of suffering there.

402
00:35:47.400 --> 00:35:50.600
And that's analogous to heat.

403
00:35:50.740 --> 00:35:55.620
And that suffering means that you will respond to the heat.

404
00:35:55.640 --> 00:35:56.860
Less effectively.

405
00:35:57.440 --> 00:36:09.520
Your decisions and actions will be sub-optimal, because they're distorted by this heat.

406
00:36:09.660 --> 00:36:18.760
And if the heat is bad enough, if a person suffers enough from stress, it will actually warp the engine.

407
00:36:19.760 --> 00:36:23.880
They will actually become permanently damaged as a human being.

408
00:36:23.900 --> 00:36:25.620
Less able to function.

409
00:36:25.640 --> 00:36:26.480
Less able to function in the world.

410
00:36:27.450 --> 00:36:30.320
People can be damaged forever by stress.

411
00:36:30.420 --> 00:36:31.480
Well, not forever.

412
00:36:31.700 --> 00:36:33.760
It can be repaired with mindfulness.

413
00:36:34.320 --> 00:36:36.620
Everything can be repaired eventually.

414
00:36:37.470 --> 00:36:52.060
But I would say that it's important to distinguish external reality or ground truth that may be causing the stress.

415
00:36:52.060 --> 00:37:01.640
From the sensory event of mental image, mental talk, physical sensation, and emotional sensation.

416
00:37:02.000 --> 00:37:10.500
That combination creates the mind-body experience, or body-mind experience, of being stressed.

417
00:37:10.960 --> 00:37:18.380
If you bring equanimity to that experience, it will reduce the suffering and free up energy.

418
00:37:18.780 --> 00:37:21.940
The reduction of suffering is good for you.

419
00:37:22.060 --> 00:37:26.320
And the freeing up of energy is also good for you.

420
00:37:26.640 --> 00:37:33.940
The reduction of suffering and the freeing up of energy is also good for others.

421
00:37:34.200 --> 00:37:40.240
Because reduction of suffering means less distortion in your thoughts and actions.

422
00:37:40.540 --> 00:37:44.060
So more skillful action in the world.

423
00:37:44.440 --> 00:37:50.740
And the freeing up of energy, energy that's been bound up in friction,

424
00:37:52.060 --> 00:38:01.380
is free for action because you've reduced inner friction through the mindfulness component called equanimity.

425
00:38:01.960 --> 00:38:06.340
That energy is now available to take action.

426
00:38:07.120 --> 00:38:08.940
Appropriate action in the world.

427
00:38:09.140 --> 00:38:11.820
So action is a vector.

428
00:38:12.670 --> 00:38:13.900
There's a direction.

429
00:38:14.180 --> 00:38:16.780
My action is in this direction.

430
00:38:17.080 --> 00:38:18.460
And there's a magnitude.

431
00:38:18.780 --> 00:38:22.040
How much force am I exerting in this direction?

432
00:38:22.060 --> 00:38:22.960
And how much force is there in a given direction?

433
00:38:23.220 --> 00:38:25.060
Is an action.

434
00:38:25.280 --> 00:38:29.840
We want to make sure that the action is the right direction.

435
00:38:30.000 --> 00:38:34.400
And has enough force behind it.

436
00:38:34.640 --> 00:38:43.480
So equanimity with the stress makes it likely that your response to the source of the stress

437
00:38:44.060 --> 00:38:49.440
will be both more skillfully directed and more powerful.

438
00:38:49.440 --> 00:38:56.460
More skillfully directed because there's not the distorting heat of suffering.

439
00:38:57.500 --> 00:38:59.500
It's just a sensory event.

440
00:38:59.700 --> 00:39:05.660
You're not as enmeshed in it as most people would be.

441
00:39:05.820 --> 00:39:08.380
And then energy is now freed up.

442
00:39:08.520 --> 00:39:16.840
So both the direction and the clout, the force of your action to deal with the stress

443
00:39:16.840 --> 00:39:23.000
is likely to be improved by the equanimity skill.

444
00:39:23.580 --> 00:39:31.280
So now I've given you a speculative answer.

445
00:39:31.760 --> 00:39:32.800
What is stress?

446
00:39:33.380 --> 00:39:40.500
And also a mechanism based on mindfulness for dealing with stress.

447
00:39:41.460 --> 00:39:44.760
Your question though was a science question.

448
00:39:45.680 --> 00:39:48.000
What is stress in the brain?

449
00:39:48.480 --> 00:39:56.540
So if we follow the formulation, the speculative formulation that I just gave you,

450
00:39:58.300 --> 00:40:00.000
then stress in

451
00:40:00.040 --> 00:40:06.280
the brain is essentially lack of equanimity.

452
00:40:06.420 --> 00:40:15.420
So then non-stress asks the question, what in the brain is equanimity?

453
00:40:15.680 --> 00:40:21.240
And the answer is, no one knows.

454
00:40:21.240 --> 00:40:29.160
But we're trying to find out in my lab, the SEMA lab at the University of Arizona, that

455
00:40:29.160 --> 00:40:32.020
is one of the markers we're looking for.

456
00:40:32.300 --> 00:40:39.460
We're trying to find, is there something we can identify in the nervous system that shows

457
00:40:39.460 --> 00:40:42.460
when you're in a state of equanimity?

458
00:40:46.660 --> 00:40:56.560
And if we can find that, I mean really find that, and prove it, and then make clinical

459
00:40:56.560 --> 00:41:05.240
applications from that, we will be the first team that gets both the Nobel Prize for Physiology

460
00:41:05.240 --> 00:41:12.300
or Medicine, and the Nobel Prize for Peace for exactly the same achievement.

461
00:41:16.180 --> 00:41:19.840
So that would be pretty big in history.

462
00:41:21.520 --> 00:41:23.580
Other labs are looking into this.

463
00:41:23.680 --> 00:41:30.460
If I were to make a guess based on what I know so far, and once again this is a guess,

464
00:41:30.560 --> 00:41:40.780
you can't hold me to it, I would say that equanimity may have something to do with the

465
00:41:40.780 --> 00:41:42.440
ability of the different brain systems to be able to identify the different types of

466
00:41:42.540 --> 00:42:05.440
sensory three circuits to interpenetrate without interfering. So do any of you play the drums? Anyone in that room play the drums? No. Any drum players? I have a little bit. I have, say what? Just a little bit.

467
00:42:06.200 --> 00:42:06.880
things.

468
00:42:06.880 --> 00:42:16.060
Okay, so professional drummers that I know talk about something called four limb independence.

469
00:42:16.720 --> 00:42:23.080
It means they can move their right hand, their left hand, their right foot, and their left

470
00:42:23.080 --> 00:42:25.980
foot without any interference between them.

471
00:42:26.060 --> 00:42:31.080
They can all do completely different things, as though they're on autopilot.

472
00:42:31.380 --> 00:42:35.820
But they're able to interpenetrate to make perfect decisions.

473
00:42:35.840 --> 00:42:40.120
They can play perfect music, but there's no subtle interference between the different

474
00:42:40.120 --> 00:42:40.560
limbs.

475
00:42:40.800 --> 00:42:51.400
So you can try just two limbs on your left, even that is very difficult.

476
00:42:51.980 --> 00:43:01.340
So we know in the motor circuitry that certain individuals through a combination of genes

477
00:43:01.340 --> 00:43:05.820
and training are able to get to the right thing.

478
00:43:05.840 --> 00:43:11.940
So we can use motor circuits to function in a way that they rhythmically, beautifully

479
00:43:11.940 --> 00:43:19.100
interpenetrate, but there's no interference, there's no wasted energy from the right arm

480
00:43:19.880 --> 00:43:21.540
fighting with the left arm.

481
00:43:21.720 --> 00:43:33.160
So it is possible, it is plausible that the inner and outer visual circuits, the outer

482
00:43:33.160 --> 00:43:34.580
visual circuits subtend.

483
00:43:35.840 --> 00:43:40.620
Or create external sight.

484
00:43:40.820 --> 00:43:44.260
The inner visual circuits create visual thought, mental image.

485
00:43:44.440 --> 00:43:49.640
You have also outer and inner auditory circuits, physical sound, mental talk.

486
00:43:51.320 --> 00:43:56.040
Metaphorically, you have the physicality of the body, but you also have the limbic system

487
00:43:56.040 --> 00:43:59.520
which causes emotional type body sensations.

488
00:44:00.180 --> 00:44:01.700
That's the limbic brain.

489
00:44:02.340 --> 00:44:05.820
So you have metaphorically and sort of, you know, you can't do anything about it, but

490
00:44:05.840 --> 00:44:09.240
you have an inner and outer feel systems in the body.

491
00:44:09.760 --> 00:44:17.480
So if we just take those six systems, putting smell and taste under feel out maybe.

492
00:44:18.660 --> 00:44:26.740
It's possible that if we were to look at the four limbs in a professional musician operating

493
00:44:27.420 --> 00:44:33.440
interpenetrating without interference and then we would look at the see hear feel circuits

494
00:44:33.440 --> 00:44:35.820
of say a formula.

495
00:44:35.840 --> 00:44:44.660
50 or 60 or 70 year meditation master we might find that there's an analogy there

496
00:44:44.660 --> 00:44:50.880
and therefore we found the neuronal signature of equanimity or

497
00:44:52.200 --> 00:44:59.220
inter interpenetrating without interfering um you heard this idea here first no human being

498
00:44:59.220 --> 00:45:00.000
has

499
00:45:00.640 --> 00:45:25.380
ever spoken these words in public. It's something that we can be, we'll be looking into here, but we're not the only lab that's trying to find out the, the neural signature of what we might call the solution to stress, which is equanimity. So once again, long answer to a short question.

500
00:45:26.440 --> 00:45:29.480
That's a wonderful answer. That's so good.

501
00:45:32.560 --> 00:45:36.960
So we probably have time for a couple more, right? It's a one hour program, is that correct?

502
00:45:37.080 --> 00:45:37.420
Yeah, go ahead.

503
00:45:42.220 --> 00:45:46.400
I have more, but I want to open the floor.

504
00:45:46.460 --> 00:45:49.820
Yeah, let's ask the question that we had about the, what?

505
00:45:49.980 --> 00:45:50.420
Enlightenment.

506
00:45:50.500 --> 00:45:53.580
No, the code. The code.

507
00:45:55.380 --> 00:45:56.480
The code about enlightenment.

508
00:45:57.200 --> 00:45:58.700
Oh, and then...

509
00:45:58.700 --> 00:45:59.360
It wasn't about enlightenment.

510
00:45:59.560 --> 00:46:02.400
It was about enlightenment in science, in modern science.

511
00:46:02.760 --> 00:46:03.260
About what?

512
00:46:03.520 --> 00:46:04.440
I think you can't...

513
00:46:04.440 --> 00:46:06.640
Back in the day, it was about enlightenment in modern science.

514
00:46:07.000 --> 00:46:10.880
Oh yeah, why you cannot get enlightenment without knowing the science.

515
00:46:11.400 --> 00:46:11.520
Mm.

516
00:46:11.980 --> 00:46:12.360
Mm-hmm.

517
00:46:12.900 --> 00:46:14.300
That's a good quote.

518
00:46:15.240 --> 00:46:16.060
What is it?

519
00:46:16.920 --> 00:46:25.180
So we're, we're thinking about your quote about how modern science might give us more

520
00:46:26.380 --> 00:46:29.560
of that to reach enlightenment.

521
00:46:30.420 --> 00:46:31.180
Yeah.

522
00:46:31.200 --> 00:46:40.340
And yeah, just wondering, and also in your book you mention many things about sort of

523
00:46:40.340 --> 00:46:50.340
applying a mathematical frame, a physical frame to the mind and to the brain to understand,

524
00:46:50.560 --> 00:46:56.360
for example, suffering as a form of turbulence was one idea that I probably would have had

525
00:46:56.380 --> 00:46:56.800
personally enjoyed.

526
00:46:57.680 --> 00:47:00.460
Yeah, it was, that was just to give an example.

527
00:47:01.080 --> 00:47:01.560
Oh.

528
00:47:01.560 --> 00:47:03.980
You know, an easy example.

529
00:47:04.540 --> 00:47:07.260
Not sure if it's true or not, but yeah.

530
00:47:07.480 --> 00:47:07.840
I see.

531
00:47:07.900 --> 00:47:09.440
Is that your intuition that it is true?

532
00:47:12.180 --> 00:47:12.660
Turbulence.

533
00:47:14.180 --> 00:47:16.240
So you know the joke about turbulence?

534
00:47:17.040 --> 00:47:18.440
The physicist joke?

535
00:47:19.340 --> 00:47:19.820
No.

536
00:47:19.900 --> 00:47:20.600
About turbulence?

537
00:47:20.820 --> 00:47:20.980
No.

538
00:47:21.060 --> 00:47:21.400
Okay.

539
00:47:22.420 --> 00:47:26.000
So, oh, who was this?

540
00:47:26.100 --> 00:47:26.360
I don't know.

541
00:47:29.080 --> 00:47:57.720
There's different versions of this. Let's see, so in one version the physicist dies and he goes to heaven and he meets God and God says, I'll answer two physics questions for you.

542
00:47:57.920 --> 00:48:03.300
You could choose two physics questions and I'll tell you the answer.

543
00:48:03.860 --> 00:48:11.440
And so the joke is the first physics question is why quantum physics?

544
00:48:12.060 --> 00:48:21.500
Why, why at the fine level of space time do we get this physics that looks so different

545
00:48:21.500 --> 00:48:22.920
from the meso level?

546
00:48:23.060 --> 00:48:27.880
Why does, why does the micro level look so different?

547
00:48:27.900 --> 00:48:33.860
so different from the meso level. At the micro level, it is, you can walk through walls.

548
00:48:34.800 --> 00:48:42.240
But at the meso level, it's going to take you a long time to achieve that. Why are these

549
00:48:42.240 --> 00:48:47.920
so different? That's the first question. And the second question is, what is turbulence?

550
00:48:47.920 --> 00:48:58.840
And the joke is, the physicist says, I'm reasonably sure God can answer the first question.

551
00:48:58.840 --> 00:49:03.300
what

552
00:49:03.300 --> 00:49:11.640
That's how mysterious turbulence is. So from a real science point of view, if I could tell

553
00:49:11.640 --> 00:49:17.700
you what turbulence was, if equanimity was non-turbulence, then...

554
00:49:17.920 --> 00:49:29.240
Then I would get actually a clay prize, because I'd be able to probably, if I could, if you

555
00:49:29.240 --> 00:49:41.800
could answer turbulence, I think you could probably answer the Navier-Stokes existence

556
00:49:41.800 --> 00:49:47.120
and smoothness question, which is a million dollar mathematical question. Not entirely

557
00:49:47.120 --> 00:49:47.900
sure of that.

558
00:49:47.920 --> 00:49:55.640
But let's just say, if I knew what turbulence was, I would also be getting a Nobel Prize

559
00:49:55.640 --> 00:49:59.860
and other prizes. So don't really know what it is.

560
00:50:00.000 --> 00:50:02.360
know a little bit about it.

561
00:50:02.420 --> 00:50:03.960
It makes a nice metaphor.

562
00:50:05.220 --> 00:50:12.680
It's possible that it's even what's going on, that we're actually creating more laminar

563
00:50:12.680 --> 00:50:16.200
flow in the energy and information in the nervous system.

564
00:50:18.540 --> 00:50:25.680
But if I had to make a guess, I'm sorry, what was the question again?

565
00:50:26.900 --> 00:50:34.400
Yeah, just whether your intuition was that turbulence would be a good frame for understanding

566
00:50:34.400 --> 00:50:34.820
this.

567
00:50:35.200 --> 00:50:41.940
Yeah, well, it's a good example, but science is science.

568
00:50:42.080 --> 00:50:47.160
So it's a good metaphor, rather.

569
00:50:47.280 --> 00:50:50.740
But science is not metaphors.

570
00:50:50.740 --> 00:50:59.620
I can come up with endless metaphors where science seems to be similar to what happens

571
00:50:59.620 --> 00:51:01.400
in mindfulness practice.

572
00:51:01.600 --> 00:51:03.000
There's no end to them.

573
00:51:03.160 --> 00:51:10.560
But the glory in science is not to the first person that states, that says something that's

574
00:51:10.560 --> 00:51:11.600
new and important.

575
00:51:12.240 --> 00:51:19.040
The glory or the credit goes to the first person that proves it.

576
00:51:19.440 --> 00:51:20.720
So, I don't know.

577
00:51:20.740 --> 00:51:30.220
The first person that can prove what equanimity is at a neurophysiological level will have

578
00:51:30.220 --> 00:51:32.480
a major achievement.

579
00:51:34.000 --> 00:51:43.440
If equanimity is laminar flow, literally, then that means that the underlying math of

580
00:51:43.440 --> 00:51:50.720
the nervous system follows the first principles of conservation of energy, of energy, of energy,

581
00:51:50.740 --> 00:51:56.000
and so forth, that are behind the continuity equations.

582
00:51:56.480 --> 00:52:00.740
Those are the continuity equations that are behind the Navier-Stokes equations.

583
00:52:02.120 --> 00:52:09.440
So, it would only be, presumably, it would only be turbulence if, in fact, the flow of

584
00:52:09.440 --> 00:52:19.620
energy and information in the nervous system is a, represents a conservative field, and

585
00:52:19.620 --> 00:52:20.600
I don't think it is.

586
00:52:20.740 --> 00:52:22.460
I think it's a dissipative field.

587
00:52:22.700 --> 00:52:24.460
So that's a different math.

588
00:52:25.740 --> 00:52:32.720
The underlying math of the nervous system, oh, you've got to stop me with this, because

589
00:52:32.720 --> 00:52:35.160
this is where I lose everyone.

590
00:52:35.440 --> 00:52:37.840
So, my children won't let me go any further.

591
00:52:38.080 --> 00:52:50.640
But let me just say that at least one important part of it is how these, the axons converge.

592
00:52:50.740 --> 00:52:52.220
How they convey energy.

593
00:52:52.540 --> 00:52:57.700
How the energy goes down the, the fibers.

594
00:52:57.840 --> 00:53:07.200
Now, there's much, much more to the physiology of the nervous system than just how signals

595
00:53:07.200 --> 00:53:11.060
go through fibers electrically.

596
00:53:11.300 --> 00:53:16.900
It's entirely possible that there are other modes of communication in the nervous system,

597
00:53:18.080 --> 00:53:20.400
that could be optic.

598
00:53:20.740 --> 00:53:27.120
Could be pressure waves. Certainly there's the transmitter substances that are completely chemical.

599
00:53:27.600 --> 00:53:41.880
But we can say this. The reaction of the signal, the electrical signal going down a fiber, is certainly an important part of how the nervous system functions.

600
00:53:42.320 --> 00:53:49.760
Once you get into, really get into neuroscience, you realize the picture is much more complicated than that.

601
00:53:50.740 --> 00:54:02.200
If we just look at that one thing, which certainly is significant, the underlying math of that is not the same as fluid flow modeled by Navier-Stokes.

602
00:54:03.000 --> 00:54:11.760
The underlying math of that is dispersion in an active medium.

603
00:54:11.960 --> 00:54:20.500
That electrical signal travels down the axon by the same physical principles.

604
00:54:20.740 --> 00:54:24.420
Whereby a flame travels down a fuse.

605
00:54:25.180 --> 00:54:31.780
It is propagation of flame, which is interesting because that's what the Buddha said connects life to life.

606
00:54:32.020 --> 00:54:34.860
It's like one candle going out another candle.

607
00:54:35.080 --> 00:54:39.200
Anyway, it is sort of interesting. That's a different math.

608
00:54:39.460 --> 00:54:42.600
And that would require a different model of equanimity.

609
00:54:42.780 --> 00:54:44.820
If you wanted to know my intuition,

610
00:54:45.780 --> 00:54:46.380
um,

611
00:54:49.220 --> 00:54:50.200
it would,

612
00:54:50.740 --> 00:54:51.540
well, see,

613
00:54:51.700 --> 00:54:54.480
these are complicated questions.

614
00:54:54.820 --> 00:55:00.000
And I'm afraid I'm going to just lose your viewers because it's

615
00:55:00.100 --> 00:55:02.340
what the hell is this guy talking about?

616
00:55:02.740 --> 00:55:05.860
You asked me a highly technical question.

617
00:55:06.100 --> 00:55:12.260
I will give you for the record the highly technical answer, at least it's here, and

618
00:55:13.400 --> 00:55:19.780
some of this has never been, I've never discussed in a public forum, so you're drawing out of

619
00:55:19.780 --> 00:55:22.720
me the cutting edge of my science hat.

620
00:55:24.200 --> 00:55:37.940
But I suspect that for a wave of association to propagate subliminally below consciousness,

621
00:55:40.560 --> 00:55:52.700
as that wave is propagating, it also has to get out of the way of the next wave of association.

622
00:55:52.720 --> 00:56:02.660
So, if it doesn't die away quickly, then there's going to be a traffic jam, there's

623
00:56:02.660 --> 00:56:06.880
going to be cross traffic for the next wave that's trying to get through.

624
00:56:08.120 --> 00:56:09.580
So... I'm sorry.

625
00:56:10.080 --> 00:56:14.720
Unless they can interpenetrate without interference.

626
00:56:16.000 --> 00:56:16.980
That's right.

627
00:56:17.500 --> 00:56:22.700
So, now, I don't know if there's a way to do that.

628
00:56:22.720 --> 00:56:32.920
I know that there is an actual way that the waves can cross without interfering, but there's

629
00:56:32.920 --> 00:56:43.240
an effective way whereby, if this is the first wave going this way, this wave dies out exactly

630
00:56:43.240 --> 00:56:47.420
perfectly, just as this wave needs to go through.

631
00:56:47.420 --> 00:56:52.620
So that the timing is absolutely perfect.

632
00:56:52.840 --> 00:57:02.560
This does this, and just when this would reach it, it dies away, and this has a clear path.

633
00:57:03.040 --> 00:57:14.560
So, it may have something to do with the, with unnecessary holding, so that this is still going while this is trying to cross.

634
00:57:15.280 --> 00:57:17.400
And that, so, that's the way.

635
00:57:17.420 --> 00:57:24.760
So, training away the unnecessary holding, so that the nervous system timing works more efficiently,

636
00:57:26.000 --> 00:57:35.680
that would explain the increase in sensory clarity, because you have more information passing through,

637
00:57:35.880 --> 00:57:37.520
it's not, there's not a log jam.

638
00:57:38.940 --> 00:57:44.700
And that would also be related to the equanimity piece,

639
00:57:44.700 --> 00:57:52.440
because they're effectively interpenetrating without interfering, even though they don't actually cross each other.

640
00:57:52.660 --> 00:57:56.180
The problem is, there's more to it.

641
00:57:56.580 --> 00:58:05.940
As something is spreading in the unconscious, on the surface, it's slowly coming to consciousness.

642
00:58:06.520 --> 00:58:09.040
So there's actually two dimensions.

643
00:58:09.520 --> 00:58:14.680
There's the dimension of spread in the unconscious, and there's the dimension of the unconscious.

644
00:58:14.700 --> 00:58:22.040
And as that is growing, as the subliminal association wave is spreading,

645
00:58:23.800 --> 00:58:31.020
it is simultaneously percolating up to surface awareness as a conscious experience.

646
00:58:31.720 --> 00:58:37.060
As it's percolating up to the surface as a conscious experience,

647
00:58:37.420 --> 00:58:44.680
the conscious mind turns back and starts to cross.

648
00:58:44.700 --> 00:58:52.620
And then it starts to grab on to what's going on deep down there.

649
00:58:52.840 --> 00:59:00.420
So here, I'm starting to be conscious, and this conscious is invested in pushing and pulling on the subconscious,

650
00:59:00.920 --> 00:59:03.580
because it thinks it has to control things.

651
00:59:04.060 --> 00:59:08.920
And that then causes interference.

652
00:59:09.800 --> 00:59:14.680
The unnecessary messiness,

653
00:59:14.700 --> 00:59:21.040
the messing around that the conscious mind, at its various levels, does with the subconscious,

654
00:59:21.440 --> 00:59:25.980
I think that's what gets trained away.

655
00:59:26.420 --> 00:59:29.260
And when a person goes into equanimity,

656
00:59:29.460 --> 00:59:34.300
their surface conscious mind is learning, when it's appropriate,

657
00:59:34.540 --> 00:59:40.140
not to turn back and interfere with what the subconscious is doing.

658
00:59:40.640 --> 00:59:44.180
And I think that in our lab,

659
00:59:44.700 --> 00:59:50.880
we may be able to show that that in fact is what's happening.

660
00:59:51.220 --> 00:59:55.500
And we may be able to show that when we...

661
00:59:57.380 --> 00:59:59.000
Do you still hear me?

662
00:59:59.240 --> 00:59:59.640
Yeah, yes.

663
01:00:00.340 --> 01:00:12.640
That when we impart a burst of ultrasound to the right circuit at the right moment,

664
01:00:13.460 --> 01:00:20.980
that it, or perhaps just to the right circuit, it may not be time related, it may just be

665
01:00:20.980 --> 01:00:21.780
location related.

666
01:00:21.780 --> 01:00:32.400
If we disconnect a certain thing, what that does is it turns off the interference that

667
01:00:32.400 --> 01:00:47.660
the surface levels are exercising on the unconscious, leaving the unconscious with functioning completely

668
01:00:47.660 --> 01:00:57.820
on its own without this inappropriate interference that causes inappropriate holding that causes

669
01:00:57.820 --> 01:01:00.400
a log jam in the subconscious.

670
01:01:00.980 --> 01:01:10.740
If that's the case, then we will have found a relatively simple and hopefully safe, we

671
01:01:10.740 --> 01:01:16.680
don't know for sure that ultrasound used in this way is safe, but hopefully safe, certainly

672
01:01:17.800 --> 01:01:25.480
We will have found a relatively simple and hopefully safe way to induce perhaps profound

673
01:01:25.480 --> 01:01:26.580
equanimity.

674
01:01:28.340 --> 01:01:32.640
Now, if we get very, very lucky, we'll do that.

675
01:01:33.140 --> 01:01:41.380
And then if we get even crazy lucky, it'll turn out that that is, creates neuroplasticity

676
01:01:41.380 --> 01:01:47.520
that accelerates the acquisition of the other two skills, clarity and concentration.

677
01:01:47.660 --> 01:01:53.900
Because the training you did with the artificial equanimity was so profound.

678
01:01:54.280 --> 01:01:57.900
And once again, we'll get those two Nobel prizes.

679
01:02:00.240 --> 01:02:00.880
Okay.

680
01:02:01.080 --> 01:02:02.260
Thank you so much.

681
01:02:02.320 --> 01:02:11.040
It was an amazing deep dive into understanding what is actually equanimity and what is going

682
01:02:11.040 --> 01:02:11.840
on in the brain.

683
01:02:12.000 --> 01:02:17.640
And as I understand, if we actually solve the questions that we discussed, we are going

684
01:02:17.660 --> 01:02:21.760
to get at least three Nobel prizes and maybe some other prizes.

685
01:02:22.080 --> 01:02:23.940
So my question is...

686
01:02:23.940 --> 01:02:26.240
Well, I think two Nobel prizes.

687
01:02:26.560 --> 01:02:35.100
One for physiology or medicine, because we discovered a new clinical mechanism.

688
01:02:36.520 --> 01:02:43.140
And then one for peace, because that mechanism turned out to be strong enough to change the

689
01:02:43.140 --> 01:02:44.900
course of human history for the better.

690
01:02:46.060 --> 01:02:47.640
I hope that the next time we meet, we'll be able to talk about the!

691
01:02:49.580 --> 01:02:54.980
kinds of things you wanted me to talk about because this is more on the

692
01:02:54.980 --> 01:03:00.200
theoretical side although I think it will be very interesting to anyone that

693
01:03:00.200 --> 01:03:05.740
has those interests. On the practical side I guess they can use some of the

694
01:03:05.740 --> 01:03:11.380
other resources I have. Maybe we'll do this again if we didn't get enough off

695
01:03:11.380 --> 01:03:17.960
of your practical list. Yeah and my question is like I'm wondering what how

696
01:03:19.580 --> 01:03:24.580
generation of people in Russia and all over the world can support this kind of

697
01:03:24.580 --> 01:03:30.100
research and support you for example in what you are doing in terms of...

698
01:03:30.100 --> 01:03:38.980
You know that is really simple. First and foremost deepen your own practice.

699
01:03:40.360 --> 01:03:48.220
Okay this is science and practice co-evolving.

700
01:03:48.580 --> 01:03:49.380
So

701
01:03:49.580 --> 01:03:58.600
! By each person deepening their experience with practice that's helping

702
01:03:58.600 --> 01:04:08.460
this process. The second thing you could do is understand the spirit of science,

703
01:04:08.760 --> 01:04:13.720
what the spirit of science is. You don't have to be a professional

704
01:04:14.440 --> 01:04:19.560
scientist in order to enjoy the spirit of science. You don't have to be a professional scientist in order to enjoy the spirit of science.

705
01:04:20.700 --> 01:04:27.460
As soon as you start to learn science in middle school or elementary school you're

706
01:04:27.460 --> 01:04:34.080
already coming in contact with what I call the spirit of science. The spirit of

707
01:04:34.080 --> 01:04:38.580
science involves a certain way to think about things and a certain way to feel

708
01:04:38.580 --> 01:04:46.560
about things. And the way to think about things is involves mathematical maturity,

709
01:04:46.900 --> 01:04:48.000
physical intuition,

710
01:04:49.580 --> 01:04:58.880
critical thinking skills, and the ability to master the social culture of the science

711
01:04:58.880 --> 01:04:59.360
world.

712
01:05:00.440 --> 01:05:25.680
Those are sort of the intellectual skills that will allow you to understand the spirit of science. And then there are emotional skills. Learning to enjoy the beauty of a theory or a theorem, its symmetries, its depth, its power, its elegance.

713
01:05:25.680 --> 01:05:40.560
This is all the art of science. So there's the science of science and then there's the art of science. And if you learn those, you'll understand the spirit of science.

714
01:05:41.720 --> 01:05:48.180
And anyone can do that. It's free on the internet. No one will prevent you from learning science.

715
01:05:49.000 --> 01:05:54.000
But the goal in science is not so much to learn this or that subject,

716
01:05:55.680 --> 01:05:58.600
but to have an appreciation for what the spirit of science is.

717
01:05:58.900 --> 01:06:08.700
There are certain things and a certain way to feel about things that make science fun and interesting.

718
01:06:09.000 --> 01:06:15.760
And the best professional scientists are motivated by that spirit.

719
01:06:16.180 --> 01:06:23.580
I would say understand, you know, deepen your own practice. Appreciate the spirit of science.

720
01:06:23.580 --> 01:06:29.300
And then you'll be in an optimal situation to participate in this movement.

721
01:06:29.600 --> 01:06:35.200
You can participate by maybe being a participant in a research.

722
01:06:35.400 --> 01:06:43.640
You're actually a subject. Come to a lab and we, you know, put a Lycra on you or something.

723
01:06:43.820 --> 01:06:53.560
You can participate by, if you have financial resources, you can donate them.

724
01:06:53.580 --> 01:07:03.040
You can donate money, charitable donations to people that are doing good work in this field.

725
01:07:04.880 --> 01:07:13.280
You can, if you understand both the spirit of science and you understand the spirit of contemplative practice or mindfulness,

726
01:07:14.280 --> 01:07:21.820
then you can be in an optimal situation to be a...

727
01:07:23.660 --> 01:07:26.480
a spokesperson for this movement.

728
01:07:26.740 --> 01:07:29.460
The movement being the modern mindfulness movement.

729
01:07:30.000 --> 01:07:37.560
So there's plenty that everyone can do right now to sort of catch the wave.

730
01:07:42.200 --> 01:07:42.960
Okay.

731
01:07:43.440 --> 01:07:44.200
So...

732
01:07:44.200 --> 01:07:45.300
Yeah, I think...

733
01:07:45.300 --> 01:07:47.320
I think we're good, huh?

734
01:07:47.520 --> 01:07:52.660
Yes, yes. It was an amazing experience. Thank you. Thank you so much.

735
01:07:53.580 --> 01:07:54.100
We'll keep in touch.

736
01:07:56.120 --> 01:07:57.320
Thank you so much.

737
01:07:57.320 --> 01:07:57.460
Yup.

738
01:07:57.500 --> 01:07:58.460
It's been a real honor.

739
01:07:58.620 --> 01:07:59.040
Yeah.

740
01:07:59.180 --> 01:08:00.120
I hope we...

741
01:08:00.120 --> 01:08:01.600
Yeah. Well, it was...

742
01:08:01.600 --> 01:08:04.280
Like I said, this is my favorite of all favorite things to do.

743
01:08:04.460 --> 01:08:06.020
So I don't know.

744
01:08:06.980 --> 01:08:10.040
I think one of you is from North America, right?

745
01:08:10.120 --> 01:08:11.980
Maybe Canada? Not quite sure.

746
01:08:12.260 --> 01:08:14.320
I am from the Bay Area. Yes.

747
01:08:15.140 --> 01:08:17.260
The Bay Area. Okay.

748
01:08:17.360 --> 01:08:19.240
But I sense a little something.

749
01:08:19.900 --> 01:08:23.240
Have you lived expat for a long time or...?

750
01:08:23.580 --> 01:08:27.300
Yeah. I have been traveling for a while now.

751
01:08:30.320 --> 01:08:34.900
So you would know who Norman Rockwell was.

752
01:08:34.920 --> 01:08:35.420
Yes.

753
01:08:35.700 --> 01:08:43.720
He was a very eminent painter of Americana, I guess we would say.

754
01:08:43.840 --> 01:08:53.080
If you look behind me, I don't know if you could see, these are four original Norman Rockwells.

755
01:08:53.080 --> 01:08:53.400
Oh.

756
01:08:53.580 --> 01:08:55.360
These are actually sketches.

757
01:08:57.380 --> 01:08:58.140
Wow.

758
01:08:58.140 --> 01:09:10.360
And the main figure, this guy, that's the father of my student whose house I'm staying

759
01:09:10.360 --> 01:09:10.740
in.

760
01:09:10.900 --> 01:09:11.280
Wow.

761
01:09:11.320 --> 01:09:15.740
And the little kid is her brother.

762
01:09:16.180 --> 01:09:19.940
So this is a little bit of real Americana here.

763
01:09:19.980 --> 01:09:22.740
This is like actually Norman Rockwell signed art.

764
01:09:22.980 --> 01:09:23.360
Oh.

765
01:09:23.380 --> 01:09:23.560
Wow.

766
01:09:25.220 --> 01:09:32.700
And my guest here grew up with Rockwell being a friend of the family.

767
01:09:33.720 --> 01:09:41.180
So anyway, I like that as a background, just it's very US or North American in a sense.

768
01:09:42.000 --> 01:09:42.780
That's fantastic.

769
01:09:43.100 --> 01:09:43.480
Nice.

770
01:09:43.480 --> 01:09:44.460
Just for the culture.

771
01:09:45.120 --> 01:09:46.160
Okay, very good.

772
01:09:46.340 --> 01:09:46.820
Have fun.

773
01:09:46.820 --> 01:09:48.860
Thank you for sharing your energy with us, Shenzhen.

774
01:09:48.960 --> 01:09:49.740
Thank you so much.

775
01:09:49.980 --> 01:09:50.380
Thank you.

776
01:09:51.240 --> 01:09:51.660
Sure.

777
01:09:51.780 --> 01:09:52.120
Yeah.

778
01:09:52.200 --> 01:09:52.700
Bye-bye.

779
01:09:55.860 --> 01:09:56.980
She's so cute.

780
01:09:57.180 --> 01:09:57.540
Hello!

781
01:09:57.540 --> 01:09:59.340
Yeah. Aww.

782
01:10:00.820 --> 01:10:01.440
That was too...

783
01:10:02.300 --> 01:10:04.080
Yeah, I want to hug him now.

784
01:10:04.260 --> 01:10:06.880
Too complicated, huh? You were right.

785
01:10:07.100 --> 01:10:08.340
Very much scientific.

786
01:10:08.700 --> 01:10:13.600
Yeah, but I think it was like an orgasmic session for Mike. Look how much he rose.

787
01:10:14.020 --> 01:10:14.120
Right.

788
01:10:15.580 --> 01:10:20.140
I thought I really could keep up, and then I was like, what is he talking about?

789
01:10:22.360 --> 01:10:26.800
Yeah, when he started, I was a little bit confused, so I need the...

790
01:10:27.360 --> 01:10:30.460
Let's go to the wrap-up of the things.

791
01:10:31.360 --> 01:10:34.080
Yeah, I think it's... How do you feel about the session?

792
01:10:34.320 --> 01:10:37.820
Let's move a bit, huh? Can you? You can't? Okay, sit, sit.

793
01:10:39.520 --> 01:10:41.860
I almost called you Zlavko.

794
01:10:42.360 --> 01:10:44.480
Zlavko, yeah, maybe it's a Christian name, Zlavko.

795
01:10:46.880 --> 01:10:47.960
You want to come in?

796
01:10:48.180 --> 01:10:49.200
No, no, I'm alright here.

797
01:10:49.460 --> 01:10:50.160
Come on, together.

798
01:10:50.540 --> 01:10:56.780
Yeah, I only lost a little bit when he started to talk about this kind of stuff.

799
01:10:59.360 --> 01:11:02.980
Yeah, I was surprised, do you have some comment?

800
01:11:03.600 --> 01:11:16.420
And he was like, you know, I thought he's not following, but he's all like fully in, I feel that you're very concentrated, and you don't need to be like, observed into what's going on, so I understand what is going on there, yeah, yeah.

801
01:11:16.500 --> 01:11:26.520
It's a simple principle, it's just, I don't know really how to explain it, I don't know, he's very funny.

802
01:11:27.800 --> 01:11:35.160
But it's simple, it's just, I don't know how to explain this, but I'm not talking too much.

803
01:11:35.460 --> 01:11:37.920
But it's like, you're the mindfulness.

804
01:11:41.420 --> 01:11:43.020
Just, you let it flow.

805
01:11:43.820 --> 01:11:50.620
You let it flow, and you simply let go, and you flow, and then it all flows in all directions.

806
01:11:51.600 --> 01:11:56.780
And you're aware of both, or everything, it's just that, as he said, as he wrote, it's like, it's like a dream.

807
01:11:56.800 --> 01:11:59.500
His words, it is interpenetrating, but not interfering.

808
01:12:01.860 --> 01:12:05.780
We can call it that way, or any other way, but that's basically it.

809
01:12:07.100 --> 01:12:13.900
So it's a, the nice thing is that people talk, and just living, basically.

810
01:12:16.200 --> 01:12:20.640
But this is what people are, this is what we are as a science, culture, or civilization.

811
01:12:22.940 --> 01:12:25.220
But, and that's what is the problem with us.

812
01:12:25.340 --> 01:12:26.780
Because we are too much in the brain.

813
01:12:28.680 --> 01:12:37.580
And if anyone went to the heart, then probably everything would change.

814
01:12:38.620 --> 01:12:41.700
And what does it mean, like, from a scientific point of view?

815
01:12:41.820 --> 01:12:47.920
Because we are definitely not talking about the heart as the heart, as the organ which is kind of taken care of.

816
01:12:48.060 --> 01:12:50.840
Or you literally mean the heart when you talk about the heart.

817
01:12:50.840 --> 01:12:53.100
It doesn't have to be the heart, it's like, located for a purpose.

818
01:12:53.100 --> 01:12:55.140
Like a notion, like a notion.

819
01:12:55.320 --> 01:12:56.180
For a human purpose.

820
01:12:56.380 --> 01:12:56.780
Okay.

821
01:12:56.800 --> 01:13:06.280
So how we can, like from a scientific point of view, explain this kind of different things, mind and heart thing.

822
01:13:06.380 --> 01:13:10.980
So it's like conscious, subconscious, or it's something else more complicated going on there?

823
01:13:11.220 --> 01:13:15.220
There is something that you would know, there is some, they call it the heart institute.

824
01:13:15.580 --> 01:13:16.480
Which you sure know.

825
01:13:16.680 --> 01:13:16.860
Yeah.

826
01:13:17.200 --> 01:13:19.200
And they talk a lot about the heart.

827
01:13:21.120 --> 01:13:22.860
But, yeah, it doesn't matter anyway.

828
01:13:23.180 --> 01:13:24.960
So it's whatever you call it.

829
01:13:25.060 --> 01:13:26.660
It's just a different level of existence.

830
01:13:27.380 --> 01:13:29.460
Yeah, I understand what you're talking about.

831
01:13:29.660 --> 01:13:33.080
That, like, we're, with Mike, we have this very scientific approach.

832
01:13:33.420 --> 01:13:42.960
So when we kind of talk about heart, it means that we don't talk about, we talk about different level of what.

833
01:13:43.160 --> 01:13:44.620
So I think that.

834
01:13:44.700 --> 01:13:47.320
So the brain is layered?

835
01:13:47.760 --> 01:13:54.500
That it started out, I mean, we're sort of built on old code, so to speak.

836
01:13:54.500 --> 01:13:59.420
That we have what's sometimes called the lizard brain.

837
01:14:00.300 --> 01:14:03.340
And then the monkey brain is built on top of that.

838
01:14:03.600 --> 01:14:05.880
And then the human brain is built on top of that.

839
01:14:06.600 --> 01:14:14.440
And I would say the core of the brain handles sort of very deep emotions, bodily sensory stuff.

840
01:14:14.720 --> 01:14:23.420
And it's very, very foundational to how everything else works together and interlocks.

841
01:14:24.500 --> 01:14:25.020
So it's like a natural instinct?

842
01:14:25.360 --> 01:14:26.340
Yeah, yeah.

843
01:14:26.460 --> 01:14:28.740
And just basic biorhythms.

844
01:14:28.840 --> 01:14:29.840
Basic instincts.

845
01:14:30.200 --> 01:14:30.840
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

846
01:14:30.840 --> 01:14:36.300
Yeah, basic instincts and basic biorhythms that kind of run us at a very deep level.

847
01:14:36.780 --> 01:14:50.720
And so I think often when people talk about the heart of things, it's talking about this sort of the deepest level of the brain where these very sort of primal rhythms live.

848
01:14:51.060 --> 01:14:51.440
Mm-hmm.

849
01:14:51.520 --> 01:14:54.220
So what's, what we're kind of.

850
01:14:54.220 --> 01:14:54.480
Yeah.

851
01:14:54.500 --> 01:14:59.780
Losing in our normal human society is losing this connection.

852
01:15:00.000 --> 01:15:28.560
so we're kind of our wires and our neurons almost wire and fire in in human level and it's kind of interfere with the signals that are going on on the let's say this heart level which is limbic and what is before limbic system I guess like lizard and monkey brain so this is lizard and monkey brain

853
01:15:29.000 --> 01:15:58.840
of the signal becoming less and where it's not getting up because we're kind of too much into the into the suppressing yeah I shouldn't be talking because then I get it it's exactly this we are trying to structure things mm-hmm and it's not about structure mm-hmm and if I would have to structure then this what you were saying from my point

854
01:15:59.000 --> 01:16:28.020
of view point of view impression is actually not so much about this whatever you called it this is why we are evolving and it is about growing back into it or even a back into it it is just growing into it through the superior gift that we were given and this is the intellect the brain growing into a new level of existence which is

855
01:16:29.020 --> 01:16:58.160
which is abandoning it in a certain sense I think that that evolution is in terms of not being evolved into the humans I think that the next level of evolution is actually being able to I kind of serve from level to level and being

856
01:16:59.000 --> 01:17:18.900
able to master all the levels so not losing the connection with any of the levels because they are all useful for for us and aligning and building because if we talk about the stress stress is actually appearing when there is a destruction and where is a dissonance between between the

857
01:17:18.900 --> 01:17:28.880
level the levels so and if we have kind of aligned and harmony stress I think what I think you can answer the question about the stress what is the stress in the

858
01:17:29.000 --> 01:17:40.320
brain you can easily answer that sure yeah I'm so happy that we asked I think

859
01:17:40.320 --> 01:17:45.080
that I'm very excited about the session because I think that Shenzhen enjoyed it

860
01:17:45.080 --> 01:17:51.280
as well so it's not that we kind of only use him for our purpose but he also

861
01:17:51.280 --> 01:17:57.560
enjoyed it and we'll ask him something that he get inspired to study as well and

862
01:17:57.560 --> 01:17:58.980
it's not that it's not that it's not that it's not that it's not that it's not that

863
01:17:59.000 --> 01:18:04.340
easy because sometimes when he was coming to the a ask me anything oma oma

864
01:18:04.340 --> 01:18:09.040
session so he has the sessions he was like okay he was just you know like a

865
01:18:09.040 --> 01:18:13.780
robot answering the questions but as soon as you switch this shenzhen part

866
01:18:13.780 --> 01:18:17.500
then you can see the real shenzhen and the real shenzhen is like unstoppable he

867
01:18:17.500 --> 01:18:22.000
can talk about one thing for one hour and it's amazing so I'm super happy how

868
01:18:22.480 --> 01:18:24.120
do you feel I feel so excited

869
01:18:26.380 --> 01:18:29.000
but can

870
01:18:29.000 --> 01:18:34.020
Can I say also how I see that brain stuff that you just discussed?

871
01:18:36.100 --> 01:18:42.380
I'm a fan of this idea that whatever happens in the brain,

872
01:18:43.240 --> 01:18:47.560
it's happening really on its own, right?

873
01:18:47.640 --> 01:18:51.560
It's a physical organ which is just moving the neurons,

874
01:18:51.760 --> 01:18:58.320
moving the chemicals and creating the illusion that it's me, right?

875
01:18:59.000 --> 01:19:01.280
It's just on its own, the substance in the head.

876
01:19:01.990 --> 01:19:04.680
But what he and what you were talking about,

877
01:19:04.700 --> 01:19:06.200
about the next step of evolution,

878
01:19:06.380 --> 01:19:07.460
what he was talking about,

879
01:19:07.620 --> 01:19:12.340
like learning how to control this stuff, right?

880
01:19:12.480 --> 01:19:15.740
And create the equanimity and so on, right?

881
01:19:16.580 --> 01:19:24.140
It's literally like taking power for the first time ever over this organ.

882
01:19:24.840 --> 01:19:25.380
Maybe.

883
01:19:25.840 --> 01:19:27.840
Which is like otherwise,

884
01:19:29.000 --> 01:19:30.920
for thousands and thousands of years,

885
01:19:31.160 --> 01:19:33.820
it's just living on its own.

886
01:19:34.040 --> 01:19:34.460
Right.

887
01:19:34.620 --> 01:19:37.900
But that's what actually Buddha was teaching us to do.

888
01:19:38.060 --> 01:19:41.280
So that's kind of taking the power of stepping back

889
01:19:41.280 --> 01:19:46.980
and observing it as something as you build kind of an external observer

890
01:19:46.980 --> 01:19:48.560
of what's going on.

891
01:19:48.980 --> 01:19:53.520
And that's the question is like,

892
01:19:53.620 --> 01:19:57.260
is it only the organ which is inside of us

893
01:19:57.260 --> 01:19:58.980
or it's also something...

894
01:19:59.000 --> 01:19:59.860
something outside

895
01:20:00.000 --> 01:20:06.080
that is bigger than us. And this is the question that I don't think we can so easily answer.

896
01:20:06.320 --> 01:20:15.900
Is it, what is, like, then we come to the question what is consciousness? Because this is something that gets on the way to answer this question.

897
01:20:16.060 --> 01:20:20.360
And that's the biggest question in the world, I think, which this guy is trying to solve.

898
01:20:21.800 --> 01:20:29.300
Well, you know, when you were talking about getting it on your own through mindfulness meditation practice, right?

899
01:20:29.700 --> 01:20:38.640
It's still only you interfering with your own organs. So it's like, for me, it's almost like maybe you are again tricking yourself because it's the same thing.

900
01:20:38.760 --> 01:20:47.820
But if you're creating the machine, which does externally, that's for sure you're taking control of the organ, right?

901
01:20:47.820 --> 01:20:53.840
Because you're interfering in something that you have not tapped into in thousands of years.

902
01:20:54.120 --> 01:21:00.300
One frame on this is that it's not about taking control and interfering.

903
01:21:00.600 --> 01:21:05.760
It's about preventing the conscious mind from taking control and interfering.

904
01:21:06.380 --> 01:21:13.380
In Shinzen's frame, there's this sort of wave propagation that's happening through the subconscious.

905
01:21:13.760 --> 01:21:16.940
And that can get log jammed, as he said.

906
01:21:17.060 --> 01:21:17.800
In a vote.

907
01:21:17.820 --> 01:21:24.140
the waves can interfere or if things are working well then one wave stops and another wave starts

908
01:21:24.140 --> 01:21:32.620
and there isn't this turbulence but then um uh the conscious mind um at least sort of the modern

909
01:21:32.620 --> 01:21:39.400
conscious mind trained as it is for modern life uh it's very analytical and says hmm what's what's

910
01:21:39.400 --> 01:21:45.220
going on there and reaches its hand down and tries to grab things and muddies the water creates

911
01:21:45.220 --> 01:21:55.000
turbulence and um that's the the thing that i wouldn't necessarily say it's new but it's made

912
01:21:55.000 --> 01:22:04.020
worse by modern life and uh basically instead of the frame of trying to take control of the brain

913
01:22:04.020 --> 01:22:12.740
and interfere with it it's just about making the conscious mind not do that to the subconscious

914
01:22:12.740 --> 01:22:14.660
mind and making them sort of

915
01:22:14.660 --> 01:22:14.940
um

916
01:22:15.220 --> 01:22:16.200
flow together

917
01:22:18.680 --> 01:22:27.340
by external sure influence it i mean his his frame was hopefully this also

918
01:22:27.340 --> 01:22:35.680
uh drives uh neuroplasticity which lets you get better at this as time goes on and then you don't

919
01:22:35.680 --> 01:22:44.500
need the external thing eventually how i see it it's kind of uh you're training your mind to

920
01:22:44.500 --> 01:22:45.200
evolve and to be able to do more and more and to be able to do more and to be able to do more and to

921
01:22:45.220 --> 01:23:13.220
improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and

922
01:23:15.220 --> 01:23:21.180
for the society while doing that or you're becoming like worse and then it's the question

923
01:23:21.180 --> 01:23:27.920
because if you get to the research of the people who are long-term meditators they don't say that

924
01:23:27.920 --> 01:23:34.900
they don't kind of describe it as something that they build so they can they say that there is just

925
01:23:34.900 --> 01:23:42.200
the processes going on and they observe themselves as a bundle of the processes so there is even like

926
01:23:42.200 --> 01:23:47.300
the sense if you talk with transactions and longer he will say that the sense of self disappears so

927
01:23:47.300 --> 01:23:55.860
there is just you know lines of the processes so and that's that's the point that if you for

928
01:23:55.860 --> 01:24:01.840
example can can make it faster the progress faster then that's kind of a new evolution of the human

929
01:24:01.840 --> 01:24:09.740
being when we can reach this level yeah as you say I mean there's this frame of this is something

930
01:24:09.740 --> 01:24:11.460
that you build and

931
01:24:12.200 --> 01:24:18.020
there's this this criticism that frame called spiritual materialism that you're you're building

932
01:24:18.020 --> 01:24:30.400
something and then you'll be protective of it and yeah it's just another trap so the question is how

933
01:24:30.400 --> 01:24:36.740
not to fall into this trap what do you well how do you kind of keep building without how you keep

934
01:24:36.740 --> 01:24:40.040
evolving without making yourself into this trap

935
01:24:40.860 --> 01:24:43.000
If that was the only trap, it would be good.

936
01:24:44.760 --> 01:24:52.040
I mean just working on I mean what philosophers would call your epistemology just trying to see

937
01:24:52.040 --> 01:24:59.840
things as they are that that's something that isn't really in the building frame it's just

938
01:25:00.680 --> 01:25:16.920
seen clearly frame and that seems to be the engine of everything else too okay or part of it not always Good. Good. Good. Good.

939
01:25:17.000 --> 01:25:24.140
So, just to finish a session, a couple of follow-up, what we can do here.

940
01:25:29.040 --> 01:25:30.500
Where is our presentation?

941
01:25:31.160 --> 01:25:32.360
Oh, uh...