Shinzen Young interview: stress, equanimity, & sensory clarity

Transcript

00:00:00And where is Drako? I'm trying to go...

00:00:03Okay.

00:00:05So, actually, this is not a good idea. I need... Sorry, I'm, uh, I like to have this part nice.

00:00:18Sure.

00:00:20So that we get a good shot.

00:00:21One more perfection.

00:00:22And do we want the area exactly at my time?

00:00:28I'm sorry, what was that?

00:00:31Did you hear me? Do we go on the air exactly at 8 o'clock my time in one minute?

00:00:37Yeah, we can, uh, we're actually on air?

00:00:41Uh, yeah, it's flexible, just whenever we want to start.

00:00:44We're already on the air?

00:00:45Yes, yes.

00:00:46I got it. Okay, good.

00:00:47Okay.

00:00:48So, I think this is a good setup for me.

00:00:53Um, I'm going to be back in just a second.

00:00:56And we'll start up.

00:00:57Great.

00:00:58Yes, of course.

00:00:59It's recorded, right?

00:01:00Uh, what do you mean, recorded?

00:01:02That Skype chat.

00:01:04No, you can't record it.

00:01:05You can.

00:01:06On Skype?

00:01:07Yeah, no.

00:01:08Skype for business, yeah.

00:01:09We haven't been.

00:01:10Maybe we can ask to record a few more.

00:01:14Because I think, uh, he's expecting it to be recorded.

00:01:18Do you want to put the camera here?

00:01:20Yeah, maybe we can.

00:01:22Yeah, yeah.

00:01:23Thanks.

00:01:30Yeah, when he says on the air, it's where he's thinking that we are showing this to

00:01:33other people as well at the same time.

00:01:34Yeah.

00:01:35Not just us.

00:01:39I think so.

00:01:42We can start recording.

00:01:44Okay, great.

00:01:45Oh, you can record.

00:01:48I always thought you can.

00:01:50I never used Skype.

00:01:54Yeah, if we can record, we don't need this camera now.

00:01:56Yeah, I think so.

00:01:57I don't, um, we might need both.

00:01:59I mean, just, just in case.

00:02:00Yeah.

00:02:03So, in theory.

00:02:04Well, if we record this, we might as well record ourselves here.

00:02:07Oh, yeah.

00:02:07It's recording?

00:02:08Let's do that.

00:02:11It's recording, no?

00:02:13Um, I'm not sure.

00:02:17It is now.

00:02:18It should be.

00:02:19Okay, is it?

00:02:20It's the red line.

00:02:21Oh, yeah, it's true.

00:02:21Yeah, it is.

00:02:23Cool.

00:02:24The red line you see in the corner and the timer.

00:02:26Yeah.

00:02:26You see?

00:02:27Stop recording.

00:02:27Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:02:2920 seconds.

00:02:3030.

00:02:31Cool.

00:02:32But we still did the full screen.

00:02:33Oh, yeah.

00:02:33Stop recording.

00:02:42Who is there?

00:02:45Animal.

00:02:47Wow.

00:02:48So, that's done.

00:02:49Then let, let, uh, Matija record us then.

00:02:54What do you think?

00:02:54Us.

00:02:55Yes.

00:02:56Okay.

00:03:02I think Zdravko slept because he's not picking call.

00:03:08Shall we wake him?

00:03:09Maybe it's good for him.

00:03:10No, I think it's fine.

00:03:11Okay.

00:03:13So, making good knock on his door.

00:03:15But, uh, he has a nice question.

00:03:17Do you remember his question about the nightmare?

00:03:19About the, yeah, about the code.

00:03:24Uh, okay.

00:03:25Okay.

00:03:27Great.

00:03:28How are you?

00:03:30I am terrific.

00:03:31I'm just gonna put a clock here.

00:03:34So, I'll have a general idea of what time it is.

00:03:38And, uh, it's great to see all you beautiful people in front of me.

00:03:42And, uh, I am going to get to do the thing I most like to do, which is, uh, talk to people

00:03:49about mindfulness.

00:03:51So, just whatever questions you want, feel free.

00:03:55Great.

00:03:56Thank you.

00:03:57Yeah, we're wondering, first of all, how you're,

00:03:59your how you usually start your morning and what maybe morning routine you have in terms of

00:04:06allowing yourself to go through the stress or stressful day without actually being involved

00:04:13in that do you have any special technique or practice that helps you with it well what i do

00:04:22do is um something that i call the asia algorithm that's an acronym a s i a

00:04:35so is this going to be interpreted of from english into slovene

00:04:41or are we are we going in english everything english in english yeah everything in english

00:04:49okay great i didn't realize that was the concept

00:04:52when i broadcast to russia we translate uh everything uh do you know victor shiriayev

00:05:00Yes, yes, we know him. Yeah, so when I do programs with Victor, it takes a long time because he translates, but you're saying we're going to go in English then. Good, that will give me more time, but also I'm going to try to speak slowly and in small sentences.

00:05:28So there is a procedure that you can use to make sure that your day is mindful.

00:05:44Now I'm going to define mindful as being a kind of awareness when you are

00:05:58concentrated, sensorially clear, and you have equanimity. Then we'll say that you're having

00:06:10an experience mindfully. So concentration power is the ability to focus on what you want to.

00:06:22Sensory clarity is the ability to keep track of what's going on, what's on the inside, what's on the outside, what's visual, what's auditory, what's body.

00:06:39Keeping track, inner or outer activation, rest states related to see, hear, feel.

00:06:49If we put smell and taste under body, that's sort of our whole sensory experience.

00:06:58So the ability to know what you're experiencing with clarity, that's an important awareness skill.

00:07:10So concentration, power, the ability to focus on what you want to focus on.

00:07:16Sensory clarity, the ability to untangle the strands of experience, what's visual, what's auditory, what's somatic, what's inner, what's outer, and so forth.

00:07:28And then there's a quality that I call equanimity, which is the ability to let the senses operate without self-interference.

00:07:42So as equanimity goes up.

00:07:46Inner friction goes down.

00:07:49Or another way to put it is equanimity is the inverse of self-conflict.

00:07:57So when you bring those three skills simultaneously to a given sensory experience, then we say you're being mindful.

00:08:15So.

00:08:18There is a way to structure mindfulness during the day.

00:08:24So you ask me, what can I do or what can any other person do to make sure I'll be mindful today?

00:08:32So the first thing is try to, as soon as you wake up, strategize about or I'm sorry, analyze the day to come.

00:08:47situations for example today my first situation was take a shower my second situation was answer

00:08:59some emails my third situation was do this program my after this I have to go to the bank

00:09:10after that I have to go to my lab where we're doing research at the University so this is a

00:09:20seek I'm sort of analyzing the day into situations and then the next step is and this is as soon as

00:09:40good

00:09:40part is Why is it looking like this? Some bad connection We

00:09:47we don't hear you oh we don't hear you do you hear

00:09:49you

00:09:50recording maybe it will just when uh when our connection got broke you can uh pass yeah

00:10:03Did you sleep well? Excellent. So let's call back.

00:10:12Just look around. It's like at that moment when you know he's gonna say something interesting. Yeah.

00:10:21And you know it's like this. Surprise!

00:10:33Who's using the internet? I'm not using it. I switched off.

00:10:46Hi. Hi there.

00:10:49Can you hear me?

00:10:54Yes.

00:10:55yes I can arrange for you to see me I think

00:11:01Can you hear me?

00:11:07Yes.

00:11:08Yes. Okay. Well, I guess.

00:11:11Can you hear me?

00:11:14Yes.

00:11:15Can you hear me?

00:11:17Yes.

00:11:17Can you hear me?

00:11:18Yes.

00:11:20Sorry, go ahead.

00:11:22If you lose my audio, then I suggest we turn off the video so that it may be a bandwidth issue here, but it sounds like we're okay now, right?

00:11:37Yeah.

00:11:40Oh.

00:11:42Maybe it's not about the recording. Do you think it's recording?

00:11:46No.

00:11:47No, it's not recording. It's the bandit.

00:11:49And maybe it's in his place, what he said. We don't hear you. No. Stop our video. ...for Wi-Fi. Hm? No, stop our video. ...here, the worst place for Wi-Fi. Click on the camera. ...mother, mother, open the side of this building.

00:12:06Alright, let's see.

00:12:08But do you see that our Wi-Fi connection is strong on your laptop?

00:12:15Mike?

00:12:17It's strong enough.

00:12:19Maybe we can try from the phone?

00:12:20Yeah, I think that's gonna be better.

00:12:25What do you mean from the phone?

00:12:28Call from the phone.

00:12:36Okay, I have my camera off.

00:12:39Can you hear me okay?

00:12:40Yes.

00:12:42So let's try audio for now.

00:12:45Okay.

00:12:46Yeah.

00:12:47Sorry about that.

00:12:48Not sure what the problem is.

00:12:52Are you having an okay signal on your end?

00:12:56We think so.

00:12:59Well, mine sure is.

00:13:00Mine shows okay also.

00:13:01So let's try it this way and we'll see how it goes.

00:13:06Okay, great.

00:13:08So I began by defining mindful awareness, three skills working together, concentration,

00:13:17clarity, equanimity.

00:13:20Now, the way you develop these skills is by doing mindful awareness techniques.

00:13:30For example, Ivana, you were at the retreat and you learned see, hear, feel and a bunch

00:13:41of other techniques.

00:13:44Each of those techniques in general will develop concentration, clarity and equanimity.

00:13:54So if you do an exercise, physical exercise, you'll find that you're able to do both.

00:14:00You'll find that your strength, endurance and flexibility increase.

00:14:09The result of exercise changes the fabric of body.

00:14:16Well, the result of physical exercise changes the fabric of the physical body.

00:14:23And the result of mindfulness, or we could call it meditation exercise, changes the fabric

00:14:30is that it

00:14:33of the body.

00:14:33It increases the strength of attention.

00:14:37And just as body health has these three aspects, strength, endurance, flexibility, attentional

00:14:47health has three aspects.

00:14:50You're strong in terms of your mind power.

00:14:57If you have concentration, sensory

00:15:00clarity, and equanimity.

00:15:03Equanimity means you don't waste energy fighting with yourself.

00:15:10Concentration means you can focus on what you want to focus on.

00:15:15And clarity means you're not overwhelmed if too much is going on all at once because you've

00:15:23trained yourself to track what part is see, what part is hear, what part is feel, and

00:15:31so forth.

00:15:32So to develop these basic mindfulness skills, you need to do mindfulness techniques.

00:15:43But a mindfulness technique has another side to it.

00:15:48It can also serve as a strategy.

00:15:52In a certain life situation, I can apply this technique while I'm in that situation.

00:16:02And it can help me deal with that situation in one way or another.

00:16:09So each mindfulness technique has two mechanisms.

00:16:18One is the ability to apply it helps with happiness.

00:16:21On one hand, every technique develops concentration, clarity, equanimity.

00:16:28So it elevates your base level of mind strength or attention strength.

00:16:37On the other hand, the different techniques have you focus on different things and focus

00:16:46in different ways.

00:16:48and those focusing on different things and in different ways serves as a strategy for dealing with life situations.

00:16:58So in order to understand how to be mindful during the day, you have to first understand what mindfulness is.

00:17:10We explained that.

00:17:12And you also understand how mindfulness is developed.

00:17:17Well, you do techniques that increase your base level of concentration, clarity, equanimity.

00:17:29But any of those techniques can also be looked upon as a strategy to deal with a life situation.

00:17:38So at the beginning of the day,

00:17:42now I'm getting back to your original question.

00:17:47The original question is, what do I do in the morning to assure a mindful day?

00:17:54Well, I do what anyone can do.

00:17:58First, I analyze the day to come in terms of situations.

00:18:06Some situations last a long time.

00:18:09Some are a short time.

00:18:11Some are.

00:18:12Some are complicated.

00:18:12Some are simple.

00:18:13Some are pleasant.

00:18:14Some are unpleasant.

00:18:16Some are a mixture of both.

00:18:18Some are neutral.

00:18:20So I look at all the situations that will happen from this moment when I opened my eyes to the moment when I close my eyes tonight to go to sleep.

00:18:36Among those situations, I decide.

00:18:42In which situations am I going to do intentional mindfulness technique?

00:18:49It's for most people not reasonable to keep a mindfulness technique intentionally going all day.

00:19:03But in some of life situations, you should do.

00:19:12An intentional technique.

00:19:13At least a little bit each day.

00:19:18So I decide where I'm going to put intentional techniques.

00:19:25Usually that means at least 10 minutes in the morning early when I just do pure formal practice of some sort.

00:19:38So that's my formal practice situation.

00:19:42Then there'll be other situations in the day.

00:19:45For example, in order what comes right now, I'm giving a presentation.

00:19:53I'm not implementing an intentional technique during this presentation.

00:19:58I'm just giving

00:20:00the presentation. But when I'm done, I'm going to walk to the bank. That walk will take me a half hour. I'm going to do an intentional meditation technique during that walk.

00:20:14After that, I'm going to ride to the lab. During that bus ride to the lab, I'm also going to do an intentional technique.

00:20:29When I arrive at the lab, I'm going to be talking to other colleagues in our group.

00:20:38I'm going to do micro hits of feel good, which is like focusing on the pleasant emotion of being with those people.

00:20:50When I'm done with the lab meeting, I'm coming back here and I'm doing some research.

00:20:55I won't be doing an intentional technique at that time.

00:21:00So, you can see what I'm doing. I'm analyzing the day into situations.

00:21:08Then I decide in which situations I'm going to intentionally meditate.

00:21:15Usually it's simple situations like taking a walk or enjoying being friendly with other people.

00:21:27Let me ask you, has my signal been okay?

00:21:30Yes, we hear everything very well.

00:21:34So, do you want to take a chance and go to audio, to video or just keep with what we've got?

00:21:39Let's try.

00:21:43Okay, we turned on our video.

00:21:46Okay, and if you lose me, then we'll just have to go back to the video.

00:21:53But you'll recall and we'll go back to audio only.

00:21:58So, you analyze the day in terms of situations.

00:22:03Then you strategize in which situation are you going to do intentional practice and what technique.

00:22:11And the technique will often be a strategy that's good for that situation.

00:22:18For example, when I'm with coworkers and we're talking, we're going to have lunch.

00:22:23We're going to discuss things.

00:22:24It makes sense that I would be radiating loving kindness to everyone in the background as an intentional technique.

00:22:32When I do a walk, everything is very simple.

00:22:36So, usually I'm doing, I'm focusing on expansion and contraction as my technique,

00:22:45which is actually a very deep and demanding technique relating to flow of a certain sort.

00:22:53Usually I'm focusing on that in the simple situation of doing walking.

00:23:01And so, then at the end of the day, so you strategize.

00:23:08And then still at the beginning of the day, you sort of motivate yourself.

00:23:13Here's why you remember why it's important at least occasionally during the day while I'm moving,

00:23:19while I'm doing something that's an action.

00:23:23So, I'm not just doing it for the sake of life.

00:23:25I've also got some intentional practice that I'm bringing into my ordinary life.

00:23:34So, I motivate myself and that's inspire, A-S-I, I for inspire.

00:23:40And then at the end of the day, the final A of A-S-I-A or Asia is I assess.

00:23:50What did I follow through on in terms of strategies?

00:23:54Which ones did I actually do?

00:23:57What was the effect?

00:23:58What can I do better tomorrow?

00:24:01Or how do I want to build on this tomorrow, etc.

00:24:05That's how you can end the day just as you're going to sleep.

00:24:09If each day you go through the procedure upon waking, analyze the day, then, I'm sorry,

00:24:19analyze the day, then strategize what techniques in what mode of practice, formal, informal,

00:24:27what's the focus range, what's the instruction set.

00:24:30These are the dimensions that determine a technique.

00:24:33So, what technique in which situation and then like here's why I want to do that.

00:24:41Here's what I learned yesterday.

00:24:43Here's what I hope to learn today.

00:24:47Inspire.

00:24:49Look back.

00:24:50Assess.

00:24:51And then you're set to build for the next day.

00:24:54Those four steps.

00:24:56If a person does them every day, that

00:25:00will guarantee that they have a component of practice that I call life practice.

00:25:08If they also do occasional retreats, then they have the pillar called retreat practice.

00:25:15And if you have those two pillars, plus you're able to get support and understand about giving support,

00:25:23then you have all of the four pillars of mindfulness practice.

00:25:29And it will be highly likely that you will be not 10% happier, but by the end of your life,

00:25:4010 times happier than you could have been otherwise.

00:25:45So long answer to a short question.

00:25:48Amazing answer. I think that's a life strategy.

00:25:53Actually, how to really improve the life happiness in the long run.

00:25:58So, yeah, I'm impressed, actually.

00:26:05Yeah, that's absolutely fantastic.

00:26:08I was wondering, what do you think stress is in the brain?

00:26:17Wow.

00:26:19That is a science.

00:26:24It is also maybe a speculative question.

00:26:39Right.

00:26:39So, a science answer to that, I am not prepared to give,

00:26:48because I would have to look at the different ways in which,

00:26:54stress is defined in neuroscience.

00:27:00And, you know, this is very interesting, because very seldom do I get asked a question that is a new question for me.

00:27:14I almost always get asked a question that I've been asked a hundred times.

00:27:20So I have very facile answers, as you saw.

00:27:23Right.

00:27:24All you have to do is like, press the button and I'm off.

00:27:28I'm a, I don't know if you could see, but it says magic robot.

00:27:32Oh, okay.

00:27:34Fantastic.

00:27:35So you just turn him on and he'll give you these answers.

00:27:40And he's a robot and he's magic, because he's studied for decades and decades.

00:27:45He's a nice guy.

00:27:46Um, that's my magic robot.

00:27:49But this is a new question that I don't have a robot for.

00:27:54All right.

00:27:54And I will therefore have to investigate it because mindfulness-based stress reduction, MBSR, is the other main school of modern mindfulness besides my system.

00:28:14MBSR and my system, Unified Mindfulness, are both modern mindfulness.

00:28:20We're both developed interacting with science.

00:28:25And because John has used stress in the name of his program, I would have to see how science has decided to define stress.

00:28:38And so I would not give an answer to what is stress in the brain without doing some more research, actually.

00:28:45But now you've inspired me to do that research.

00:28:50I think I can answer you in a speculative way.

00:28:56Please.

00:28:57By that I mean I can look at my own experience, look at things that I would say are stress, and then sort of give you a subjective view of what might be going on there.

00:29:16So let me see what I would come up with.

00:29:22It seems to me that one component of stress, whenever we would say someone is under stress, we would say that they are having an unpleasant experience of their mind and their body.

00:29:47So one thing we can say about stress.

00:29:50I think is that it's a specific instance of an unpleasant mind-body

00:30:00state.

00:30:01So that's stress as a sensory experience.

00:30:08Then there, whenever we think about stress, I think we not only are aware that it can

00:30:20be a sensory experience, but we may be thinking about what causes the stress.

00:30:28And I think those are called stressors.

00:30:31So there might be external circumstances that trigger this unpleasant sensory event of stress.

00:30:45So obviously one way to reduce stress is to change the external stressors.

00:30:54So you reduce those.

00:30:59that uncomfortable experience of being stressed.

00:31:02But I would say that another way to reduce stress is through having equanimity with that uncomfortable sensory experience.

00:31:19Because I think that the perceived suffering that you get from that uncomfortable sensory mind-body state is not a function only of the external stressors.

00:31:38It's also a function of how much you fight with the sensory event of stress.

00:31:47So by training yourself.

00:31:49To fight, not fight, with the mental image, mental talk, emotional body sensation, and physical body sensation.

00:32:02Those are the four components, sensory components, that potentially are present when you're having the experience of stress.

00:32:16So an external circumstance.

00:32:20Can cause stress.

00:32:25However, if you have the equanimity skill and you don't fight with the mental image, mental talk, physical body sensations, and emotional body sensations of the stress.

00:32:43Then that stress experience will cause you less and less suffering.

00:32:50And equanimity is to the consciousness engine as oil is to the engine in your automobile.

00:33:07So when you lubricate the automobile, it has two effects.

00:33:14It reduces unnecessary heat and it frees up energy that is wasted in friction that is dissipated.

00:33:28It saves on your use of fuel because you're using the fuel more efficiently.

00:33:35So I would say analogously, when you bring the skill of equanimity,

00:33:44to the mind-body state of stress, then that stress causes less suffering.

00:33:59And also does not waste life energy.

00:34:06Because remember, equanimity is the reciprocal or inverse of

00:34:13stress.

00:34:13So when you bring the skill of equanimity to the mind-body state of stress,

00:34:14then you are bringing the self-interference or the piston grinding against the cylinder friction

00:34:22in the consciousness engine.

00:34:24So when you bring equanimity to the actual mind-body state of being stressed, as opposed

00:34:32to which is a sensory experience, which is in contrast to the objective circumstances

00:34:41that create the stress.

00:34:44Which could be circumstances in the world or your health circumstances.

00:34:50Your body can be stressed because of lifestyle decisions you've made and so forth.

00:34:56So what happens then is, since

00:35:00the equanimity is like lubricating the engine, it has the same two effects as oil in an automobile.

00:35:10The first effect is less wasted energy dissipated, so more efficient use of life fuel.

00:35:21And the second effect is reduction of heating of the engine.

00:35:25Now what happens if the engine heats, it doesn't function well, and if it heats too much, it actually gets damaged.

00:35:34Well, it turns out that when you have a mind-body experience of stress, and you don't have equanimity, there's a lot of suffering there.

00:35:47And that's analogous to heat.

00:35:50And that suffering means that you will respond to the heat.

00:35:55Less effectively.

00:35:57Your decisions and actions will be sub-optimal, because they're distorted by this heat.

00:36:09And if the heat is bad enough, if a person suffers enough from stress, it will actually warp the engine.

00:36:19They will actually become permanently damaged as a human being.

00:36:23Less able to function.

00:36:25Less able to function in the world.

00:36:27People can be damaged forever by stress.

00:36:30Well, not forever.

00:36:31It can be repaired with mindfulness.

00:36:34Everything can be repaired eventually.

00:36:37But I would say that it's important to distinguish external reality or ground truth that may be causing the stress.

00:36:52From the sensory event of mental image, mental talk, physical sensation, and emotional sensation.

00:37:02That combination creates the mind-body experience, or body-mind experience, of being stressed.

00:37:10If you bring equanimity to that experience, it will reduce the suffering and free up energy.

00:37:18The reduction of suffering is good for you.

00:37:22And the freeing up of energy is also good for you.

00:37:26The reduction of suffering and the freeing up of energy is also good for others.

00:37:34Because reduction of suffering means less distortion in your thoughts and actions.

00:37:40So more skillful action in the world.

00:37:44And the freeing up of energy, energy that's been bound up in friction,

00:37:52is free for action because you've reduced inner friction through the mindfulness component called equanimity.

00:38:01That energy is now available to take action.

00:38:07Appropriate action in the world.

00:38:09So action is a vector.

00:38:12There's a direction.

00:38:14My action is in this direction.

00:38:17And there's a magnitude.

00:38:18How much force am I exerting in this direction?

00:38:22And how much force is there in a given direction?

00:38:23Is an action.

00:38:25We want to make sure that the action is the right direction.

00:38:30And has enough force behind it.

00:38:34So equanimity with the stress makes it likely that your response to the source of the stress

00:38:44will be both more skillfully directed and more powerful.

00:38:49More skillfully directed because there's not the distorting heat of suffering.

00:38:57It's just a sensory event.

00:38:59You're not as enmeshed in it as most people would be.

00:39:05And then energy is now freed up.

00:39:08So both the direction and the clout, the force of your action to deal with the stress

00:39:16is likely to be improved by the equanimity skill.

00:39:23So now I've given you a speculative answer.

00:39:31What is stress?

00:39:33And also a mechanism based on mindfulness for dealing with stress.

00:39:41Your question though was a science question.

00:39:45What is stress in the brain?

00:39:48So if we follow the formulation, the speculative formulation that I just gave you,

00:39:58then stress in

00:40:00the brain is essentially lack of equanimity.

00:40:06So then non-stress asks the question, what in the brain is equanimity?

00:40:15And the answer is, no one knows.

00:40:21But we're trying to find out in my lab, the SEMA lab at the University of Arizona, that

00:40:29is one of the markers we're looking for.

00:40:32We're trying to find, is there something we can identify in the nervous system that shows

00:40:39when you're in a state of equanimity?

00:40:46And if we can find that, I mean really find that, and prove it, and then make clinical

00:40:56applications from that, we will be the first team that gets both the Nobel Prize for Physiology

00:41:05or Medicine, and the Nobel Prize for Peace for exactly the same achievement.

00:41:16So that would be pretty big in history.

00:41:21Other labs are looking into this.

00:41:23If I were to make a guess based on what I know so far, and once again this is a guess,

00:41:30you can't hold me to it, I would say that equanimity may have something to do with the

00:41:40ability of the different brain systems to be able to identify the different types of

00:41:42sensory three circuits to interpenetrate without interfering. So do any of you play the drums? Anyone in that room play the drums? No. Any drum players? I have a little bit. I have, say what? Just a little bit.

00:42:06things.

00:42:06Okay, so professional drummers that I know talk about something called four limb independence.

00:42:16It means they can move their right hand, their left hand, their right foot, and their left

00:42:23foot without any interference between them.

00:42:26They can all do completely different things, as though they're on autopilot.

00:42:31But they're able to interpenetrate to make perfect decisions.

00:42:35They can play perfect music, but there's no subtle interference between the different

00:42:40limbs.

00:42:40So you can try just two limbs on your left, even that is very difficult.

00:42:51So we know in the motor circuitry that certain individuals through a combination of genes

00:43:01and training are able to get to the right thing.

00:43:05So we can use motor circuits to function in a way that they rhythmically, beautifully

00:43:11interpenetrate, but there's no interference, there's no wasted energy from the right arm

00:43:19fighting with the left arm.

00:43:21So it is possible, it is plausible that the inner and outer visual circuits, the outer

00:43:33visual circuits subtend.

00:43:35Or create external sight.

00:43:40The inner visual circuits create visual thought, mental image.

00:43:44You have also outer and inner auditory circuits, physical sound, mental talk.

00:43:51Metaphorically, you have the physicality of the body, but you also have the limbic system

00:43:56which causes emotional type body sensations.

00:44:00That's the limbic brain.

00:44:02So you have metaphorically and sort of, you know, you can't do anything about it, but

00:44:05you have an inner and outer feel systems in the body.

00:44:09So if we just take those six systems, putting smell and taste under feel out maybe.

00:44:18It's possible that if we were to look at the four limbs in a professional musician operating

00:44:27interpenetrating without interference and then we would look at the see hear feel circuits

00:44:33of say a formula.

00:44:3550 or 60 or 70 year meditation master we might find that there's an analogy there

00:44:44and therefore we found the neuronal signature of equanimity or

00:44:52inter interpenetrating without interfering um you heard this idea here first no human being

00:44:59has

00:45:00ever spoken these words in public. It's something that we can be, we'll be looking into here, but we're not the only lab that's trying to find out the, the neural signature of what we might call the solution to stress, which is equanimity. So once again, long answer to a short question.

00:45:26That's a wonderful answer. That's so good.

00:45:32So we probably have time for a couple more, right? It's a one hour program, is that correct?

00:45:37Yeah, go ahead.

00:45:42I have more, but I want to open the floor.

00:45:46Yeah, let's ask the question that we had about the, what?

00:45:49Enlightenment.

00:45:50No, the code. The code.

00:45:55The code about enlightenment.

00:45:57Oh, and then...

00:45:58It wasn't about enlightenment.

00:45:59It was about enlightenment in science, in modern science.

00:46:02About what?

00:46:03I think you can't...

00:46:04Back in the day, it was about enlightenment in modern science.

00:46:07Oh yeah, why you cannot get enlightenment without knowing the science.

00:46:11Mm.

00:46:11Mm-hmm.

00:46:12That's a good quote.

00:46:15What is it?

00:46:16So we're, we're thinking about your quote about how modern science might give us more

00:46:26of that to reach enlightenment.

00:46:30Yeah.

00:46:31And yeah, just wondering, and also in your book you mention many things about sort of

00:46:40applying a mathematical frame, a physical frame to the mind and to the brain to understand,

00:46:50for example, suffering as a form of turbulence was one idea that I probably would have had

00:46:56personally enjoyed.

00:46:57Yeah, it was, that was just to give an example.

00:47:01Oh.

00:47:01You know, an easy example.

00:47:04Not sure if it's true or not, but yeah.

00:47:07I see.

00:47:07Is that your intuition that it is true?

00:47:12Turbulence.

00:47:14So you know the joke about turbulence?

00:47:17The physicist joke?

00:47:19No.

00:47:19About turbulence?

00:47:20No.

00:47:21Okay.

00:47:22So, oh, who was this?

00:47:26I don't know.

00:47:29There's different versions of this. Let's see, so in one version the physicist dies and he goes to heaven and he meets God and God says, I'll answer two physics questions for you.

00:47:57You could choose two physics questions and I'll tell you the answer.

00:48:03And so the joke is the first physics question is why quantum physics?

00:48:12Why, why at the fine level of space time do we get this physics that looks so different

00:48:21from the meso level?

00:48:23Why does, why does the micro level look so different?

00:48:27so different from the meso level. At the micro level, it is, you can walk through walls.

00:48:34But at the meso level, it's going to take you a long time to achieve that. Why are these

00:48:42so different? That's the first question. And the second question is, what is turbulence?

00:48:47And the joke is, the physicist says, I'm reasonably sure God can answer the first question.

00:48:58what

00:49:03That's how mysterious turbulence is. So from a real science point of view, if I could tell

00:49:11you what turbulence was, if equanimity was non-turbulence, then...

00:49:17Then I would get actually a clay prize, because I'd be able to probably, if I could, if you

00:49:29could answer turbulence, I think you could probably answer the Navier-Stokes existence

00:49:41and smoothness question, which is a million dollar mathematical question. Not entirely

00:49:47sure of that.

00:49:47But let's just say, if I knew what turbulence was, I would also be getting a Nobel Prize

00:49:55and other prizes. So don't really know what it is.

00:50:00know a little bit about it.

00:50:02It makes a nice metaphor.

00:50:05It's possible that it's even what's going on, that we're actually creating more laminar

00:50:12flow in the energy and information in the nervous system.

00:50:18But if I had to make a guess, I'm sorry, what was the question again?

00:50:26Yeah, just whether your intuition was that turbulence would be a good frame for understanding

00:50:34this.

00:50:35Yeah, well, it's a good example, but science is science.

00:50:42So it's a good metaphor, rather.

00:50:47But science is not metaphors.

00:50:50I can come up with endless metaphors where science seems to be similar to what happens

00:50:59in mindfulness practice.

00:51:01There's no end to them.

00:51:03But the glory in science is not to the first person that states, that says something that's

00:51:10new and important.

00:51:12The glory or the credit goes to the first person that proves it.

00:51:19So, I don't know.

00:51:20The first person that can prove what equanimity is at a neurophysiological level will have

00:51:30a major achievement.

00:51:34If equanimity is laminar flow, literally, then that means that the underlying math of

00:51:43the nervous system follows the first principles of conservation of energy, of energy, of energy,

00:51:50and so forth, that are behind the continuity equations.

00:51:56Those are the continuity equations that are behind the Navier-Stokes equations.

00:52:02So, it would only be, presumably, it would only be turbulence if, in fact, the flow of

00:52:09energy and information in the nervous system is a, represents a conservative field, and

00:52:19I don't think it is.

00:52:20I think it's a dissipative field.

00:52:22So that's a different math.

00:52:25The underlying math of the nervous system, oh, you've got to stop me with this, because

00:52:32this is where I lose everyone.

00:52:35So, my children won't let me go any further.

00:52:38But let me just say that at least one important part of it is how these, the axons converge.

00:52:50How they convey energy.

00:52:52How the energy goes down the, the fibers.

00:52:57Now, there's much, much more to the physiology of the nervous system than just how signals

00:53:07go through fibers electrically.

00:53:11It's entirely possible that there are other modes of communication in the nervous system,

00:53:18that could be optic.

00:53:20Could be pressure waves. Certainly there's the transmitter substances that are completely chemical.

00:53:27But we can say this. The reaction of the signal, the electrical signal going down a fiber, is certainly an important part of how the nervous system functions.

00:53:42Once you get into, really get into neuroscience, you realize the picture is much more complicated than that.

00:53:50If we just look at that one thing, which certainly is significant, the underlying math of that is not the same as fluid flow modeled by Navier-Stokes.

00:54:03The underlying math of that is dispersion in an active medium.

00:54:11That electrical signal travels down the axon by the same physical principles.

00:54:20Whereby a flame travels down a fuse.

00:54:25It is propagation of flame, which is interesting because that's what the Buddha said connects life to life.

00:54:32It's like one candle going out another candle.

00:54:35Anyway, it is sort of interesting. That's a different math.

00:54:39And that would require a different model of equanimity.

00:54:42If you wanted to know my intuition,

00:54:45um,

00:54:49it would,

00:54:50well, see,

00:54:51these are complicated questions.

00:54:54And I'm afraid I'm going to just lose your viewers because it's

00:55:00what the hell is this guy talking about?

00:55:02You asked me a highly technical question.

00:55:06I will give you for the record the highly technical answer, at least it's here, and

00:55:13some of this has never been, I've never discussed in a public forum, so you're drawing out of

00:55:19me the cutting edge of my science hat.

00:55:24But I suspect that for a wave of association to propagate subliminally below consciousness,

00:55:40as that wave is propagating, it also has to get out of the way of the next wave of association.

00:55:52So, if it doesn't die away quickly, then there's going to be a traffic jam, there's

00:56:02going to be cross traffic for the next wave that's trying to get through.

00:56:08So... I'm sorry.

00:56:10Unless they can interpenetrate without interference.

00:56:16That's right.

00:56:17So, now, I don't know if there's a way to do that.

00:56:22I know that there is an actual way that the waves can cross without interfering, but there's

00:56:32an effective way whereby, if this is the first wave going this way, this wave dies out exactly

00:56:43perfectly, just as this wave needs to go through.

00:56:47So that the timing is absolutely perfect.

00:56:52This does this, and just when this would reach it, it dies away, and this has a clear path.

00:57:03So, it may have something to do with the, with unnecessary holding, so that this is still going while this is trying to cross.

00:57:15And that, so, that's the way.

00:57:17So, training away the unnecessary holding, so that the nervous system timing works more efficiently,

00:57:26that would explain the increase in sensory clarity, because you have more information passing through,

00:57:35it's not, there's not a log jam.

00:57:38And that would also be related to the equanimity piece,

00:57:44because they're effectively interpenetrating without interfering, even though they don't actually cross each other.

00:57:52The problem is, there's more to it.

00:57:56As something is spreading in the unconscious, on the surface, it's slowly coming to consciousness.

00:58:06So there's actually two dimensions.

00:58:09There's the dimension of spread in the unconscious, and there's the dimension of the unconscious.

00:58:14And as that is growing, as the subliminal association wave is spreading,

00:58:23it is simultaneously percolating up to surface awareness as a conscious experience.

00:58:31As it's percolating up to the surface as a conscious experience,

00:58:37the conscious mind turns back and starts to cross.

00:58:44And then it starts to grab on to what's going on deep down there.

00:58:52So here, I'm starting to be conscious, and this conscious is invested in pushing and pulling on the subconscious,

00:59:00because it thinks it has to control things.

00:59:04And that then causes interference.

00:59:09The unnecessary messiness,

00:59:14the messing around that the conscious mind, at its various levels, does with the subconscious,

00:59:21I think that's what gets trained away.

00:59:26And when a person goes into equanimity,

00:59:29their surface conscious mind is learning, when it's appropriate,

00:59:34not to turn back and interfere with what the subconscious is doing.

00:59:40And I think that in our lab,

00:59:44we may be able to show that that in fact is what's happening.

00:59:51And we may be able to show that when we...

00:59:57Do you still hear me?

00:59:59Yeah, yes.

01:00:00That when we impart a burst of ultrasound to the right circuit at the right moment,

01:00:13that it, or perhaps just to the right circuit, it may not be time related, it may just be

01:00:20location related.

01:00:21If we disconnect a certain thing, what that does is it turns off the interference that

01:00:32the surface levels are exercising on the unconscious, leaving the unconscious with functioning completely

01:00:47on its own without this inappropriate interference that causes inappropriate holding that causes

01:00:57a log jam in the subconscious.

01:01:00If that's the case, then we will have found a relatively simple and hopefully safe, we

01:01:10don't know for sure that ultrasound used in this way is safe, but hopefully safe, certainly

01:01:17We will have found a relatively simple and hopefully safe way to induce perhaps profound

01:01:25equanimity.

01:01:28Now, if we get very, very lucky, we'll do that.

01:01:33And then if we get even crazy lucky, it'll turn out that that is, creates neuroplasticity

01:01:41that accelerates the acquisition of the other two skills, clarity and concentration.

01:01:47Because the training you did with the artificial equanimity was so profound.

01:01:54And once again, we'll get those two Nobel prizes.

01:02:00Okay.

01:02:01Thank you so much.

01:02:02It was an amazing deep dive into understanding what is actually equanimity and what is going

01:02:11on in the brain.

01:02:12And as I understand, if we actually solve the questions that we discussed, we are going

01:02:17to get at least three Nobel prizes and maybe some other prizes.

01:02:22So my question is...

01:02:23Well, I think two Nobel prizes.

01:02:26One for physiology or medicine, because we discovered a new clinical mechanism.

01:02:36And then one for peace, because that mechanism turned out to be strong enough to change the

01:02:43course of human history for the better.

01:02:46I hope that the next time we meet, we'll be able to talk about the!

01:02:49kinds of things you wanted me to talk about because this is more on the

01:02:54theoretical side although I think it will be very interesting to anyone that

01:03:00has those interests. On the practical side I guess they can use some of the

01:03:05other resources I have. Maybe we'll do this again if we didn't get enough off

01:03:11of your practical list. Yeah and my question is like I'm wondering what how

01:03:19generation of people in Russia and all over the world can support this kind of

01:03:24research and support you for example in what you are doing in terms of...

01:03:30You know that is really simple. First and foremost deepen your own practice.

01:03:40Okay this is science and practice co-evolving.

01:03:48So

01:03:49! By each person deepening their experience with practice that's helping

01:03:58this process. The second thing you could do is understand the spirit of science,

01:04:08what the spirit of science is. You don't have to be a professional

01:04:14scientist in order to enjoy the spirit of science. You don't have to be a professional scientist in order to enjoy the spirit of science.

01:04:20As soon as you start to learn science in middle school or elementary school you're

01:04:27already coming in contact with what I call the spirit of science. The spirit of

01:04:34science involves a certain way to think about things and a certain way to feel

01:04:38about things. And the way to think about things is involves mathematical maturity,

01:04:46physical intuition,

01:04:49critical thinking skills, and the ability to master the social culture of the science

01:04:58world.

01:05:00Those are sort of the intellectual skills that will allow you to understand the spirit of science. And then there are emotional skills. Learning to enjoy the beauty of a theory or a theorem, its symmetries, its depth, its power, its elegance.

01:05:25This is all the art of science. So there's the science of science and then there's the art of science. And if you learn those, you'll understand the spirit of science.

01:05:41And anyone can do that. It's free on the internet. No one will prevent you from learning science.

01:05:49But the goal in science is not so much to learn this or that subject,

01:05:55but to have an appreciation for what the spirit of science is.

01:05:58There are certain things and a certain way to feel about things that make science fun and interesting.

01:06:09And the best professional scientists are motivated by that spirit.

01:06:16I would say understand, you know, deepen your own practice. Appreciate the spirit of science.

01:06:23And then you'll be in an optimal situation to participate in this movement.

01:06:29You can participate by maybe being a participant in a research.

01:06:35You're actually a subject. Come to a lab and we, you know, put a Lycra on you or something.

01:06:43You can participate by, if you have financial resources, you can donate them.

01:06:53You can donate money, charitable donations to people that are doing good work in this field.

01:07:04You can, if you understand both the spirit of science and you understand the spirit of contemplative practice or mindfulness,

01:07:14then you can be in an optimal situation to be a...

01:07:23a spokesperson for this movement.

01:07:26The movement being the modern mindfulness movement.

01:07:30So there's plenty that everyone can do right now to sort of catch the wave.

01:07:42Okay.

01:07:43So...

01:07:44Yeah, I think...

01:07:45I think we're good, huh?

01:07:47Yes, yes. It was an amazing experience. Thank you. Thank you so much.

01:07:53We'll keep in touch.

01:07:56Thank you so much.

01:07:57Yup.

01:07:57It's been a real honor.

01:07:58Yeah.

01:07:59I hope we...

01:08:00Yeah. Well, it was...

01:08:01Like I said, this is my favorite of all favorite things to do.

01:08:04So I don't know.

01:08:06I think one of you is from North America, right?

01:08:10Maybe Canada? Not quite sure.

01:08:12I am from the Bay Area. Yes.

01:08:15The Bay Area. Okay.

01:08:17But I sense a little something.

01:08:19Have you lived expat for a long time or...?

01:08:23Yeah. I have been traveling for a while now.

01:08:30So you would know who Norman Rockwell was.

01:08:34Yes.

01:08:35He was a very eminent painter of Americana, I guess we would say.

01:08:43If you look behind me, I don't know if you could see, these are four original Norman Rockwells.

01:08:53Oh.

01:08:53These are actually sketches.

01:08:57Wow.

01:08:58And the main figure, this guy, that's the father of my student whose house I'm staying

01:09:10in.

01:09:10Wow.

01:09:11And the little kid is her brother.

01:09:16So this is a little bit of real Americana here.

01:09:19This is like actually Norman Rockwell signed art.

01:09:22Oh.

01:09:23Wow.

01:09:25And my guest here grew up with Rockwell being a friend of the family.

01:09:33So anyway, I like that as a background, just it's very US or North American in a sense.

01:09:42That's fantastic.

01:09:43Nice.

01:09:43Just for the culture.

01:09:45Okay, very good.

01:09:46Have fun.

01:09:46Thank you for sharing your energy with us, Shenzhen.

01:09:48Thank you so much.

01:09:49Thank you.

01:09:51Sure.

01:09:51Yeah.

01:09:52Bye-bye.

01:09:55She's so cute.

01:09:57Hello!

01:09:57Yeah. Aww.

01:10:00That was too...

01:10:02Yeah, I want to hug him now.

01:10:04Too complicated, huh? You were right.

01:10:07Very much scientific.

01:10:08Yeah, but I think it was like an orgasmic session for Mike. Look how much he rose.

01:10:14Right.

01:10:15I thought I really could keep up, and then I was like, what is he talking about?

01:10:22Yeah, when he started, I was a little bit confused, so I need the...

01:10:27Let's go to the wrap-up of the things.

01:10:31Yeah, I think it's... How do you feel about the session?

01:10:34Let's move a bit, huh? Can you? You can't? Okay, sit, sit.

01:10:39I almost called you Zlavko.

01:10:42Zlavko, yeah, maybe it's a Christian name, Zlavko.

01:10:46You want to come in?

01:10:48No, no, I'm alright here.

01:10:49Come on, together.

01:10:50Yeah, I only lost a little bit when he started to talk about this kind of stuff.

01:10:59Yeah, I was surprised, do you have some comment?

01:11:03And he was like, you know, I thought he's not following, but he's all like fully in, I feel that you're very concentrated, and you don't need to be like, observed into what's going on, so I understand what is going on there, yeah, yeah.

01:11:16It's a simple principle, it's just, I don't know really how to explain it, I don't know, he's very funny.

01:11:27But it's simple, it's just, I don't know how to explain this, but I'm not talking too much.

01:11:35But it's like, you're the mindfulness.

01:11:41Just, you let it flow.

01:11:43You let it flow, and you simply let go, and you flow, and then it all flows in all directions.

01:11:51And you're aware of both, or everything, it's just that, as he said, as he wrote, it's like, it's like a dream.

01:11:56His words, it is interpenetrating, but not interfering.

01:12:01We can call it that way, or any other way, but that's basically it.

01:12:07So it's a, the nice thing is that people talk, and just living, basically.

01:12:16But this is what people are, this is what we are as a science, culture, or civilization.

01:12:22But, and that's what is the problem with us.

01:12:25Because we are too much in the brain.

01:12:28And if anyone went to the heart, then probably everything would change.

01:12:38And what does it mean, like, from a scientific point of view?

01:12:41Because we are definitely not talking about the heart as the heart, as the organ which is kind of taken care of.

01:12:48Or you literally mean the heart when you talk about the heart.

01:12:50It doesn't have to be the heart, it's like, located for a purpose.

01:12:53Like a notion, like a notion.

01:12:55For a human purpose.

01:12:56Okay.

01:12:56So how we can, like from a scientific point of view, explain this kind of different things, mind and heart thing.

01:13:06So it's like conscious, subconscious, or it's something else more complicated going on there?

01:13:11There is something that you would know, there is some, they call it the heart institute.

01:13:15Which you sure know.

01:13:16Yeah.

01:13:17And they talk a lot about the heart.

01:13:21But, yeah, it doesn't matter anyway.

01:13:23So it's whatever you call it.

01:13:25It's just a different level of existence.

01:13:27Yeah, I understand what you're talking about.

01:13:29That, like, we're, with Mike, we have this very scientific approach.

01:13:33So when we kind of talk about heart, it means that we don't talk about, we talk about different level of what.

01:13:43So I think that.

01:13:44So the brain is layered?

01:13:47That it started out, I mean, we're sort of built on old code, so to speak.

01:13:54That we have what's sometimes called the lizard brain.

01:14:00And then the monkey brain is built on top of that.

01:14:03And then the human brain is built on top of that.

01:14:06And I would say the core of the brain handles sort of very deep emotions, bodily sensory stuff.

01:14:14And it's very, very foundational to how everything else works together and interlocks.

01:14:24So it's like a natural instinct?

01:14:25Yeah, yeah.

01:14:26And just basic biorhythms.

01:14:28Basic instincts.

01:14:30Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:14:30Yeah, basic instincts and basic biorhythms that kind of run us at a very deep level.

01:14:36And so I think often when people talk about the heart of things, it's talking about this sort of the deepest level of the brain where these very sort of primal rhythms live.

01:14:51Mm-hmm.

01:14:51So what's, what we're kind of.

01:14:54Yeah.

01:14:54Losing in our normal human society is losing this connection.

01:15:00so we're kind of our wires and our neurons almost wire and fire in in human level and it's kind of interfere with the signals that are going on on the let's say this heart level which is limbic and what is before limbic system I guess like lizard and monkey brain so this is lizard and monkey brain

01:15:29of the signal becoming less and where it's not getting up because we're kind of too much into the into the suppressing yeah I shouldn't be talking because then I get it it's exactly this we are trying to structure things mm-hmm and it's not about structure mm-hmm and if I would have to structure then this what you were saying from my point

01:15:59of view point of view impression is actually not so much about this whatever you called it this is why we are evolving and it is about growing back into it or even a back into it it is just growing into it through the superior gift that we were given and this is the intellect the brain growing into a new level of existence which is

01:16:29which is abandoning it in a certain sense I think that that evolution is in terms of not being evolved into the humans I think that the next level of evolution is actually being able to I kind of serve from level to level and being

01:16:59able to master all the levels so not losing the connection with any of the levels because they are all useful for for us and aligning and building because if we talk about the stress stress is actually appearing when there is a destruction and where is a dissonance between between the

01:17:18level the levels so and if we have kind of aligned and harmony stress I think what I think you can answer the question about the stress what is the stress in the

01:17:29brain you can easily answer that sure yeah I'm so happy that we asked I think

01:17:40that I'm very excited about the session because I think that Shenzhen enjoyed it

01:17:45as well so it's not that we kind of only use him for our purpose but he also

01:17:51enjoyed it and we'll ask him something that he get inspired to study as well and

01:17:57it's not that it's not that it's not that it's not that it's not that it's not that

01:17:59easy because sometimes when he was coming to the a ask me anything oma oma

01:18:04session so he has the sessions he was like okay he was just you know like a

01:18:09robot answering the questions but as soon as you switch this shenzhen part

01:18:13then you can see the real shenzhen and the real shenzhen is like unstoppable he

01:18:17can talk about one thing for one hour and it's amazing so I'm super happy how

01:18:22do you feel I feel so excited

01:18:26but can

01:18:29Can I say also how I see that brain stuff that you just discussed?

01:18:36I'm a fan of this idea that whatever happens in the brain,

01:18:43it's happening really on its own, right?

01:18:47It's a physical organ which is just moving the neurons,

01:18:51moving the chemicals and creating the illusion that it's me, right?

01:18:59It's just on its own, the substance in the head.

01:19:01But what he and what you were talking about,

01:19:04about the next step of evolution,

01:19:06what he was talking about,

01:19:07like learning how to control this stuff, right?

01:19:12And create the equanimity and so on, right?

01:19:16It's literally like taking power for the first time ever over this organ.

01:19:24Maybe.

01:19:25Which is like otherwise,

01:19:29for thousands and thousands of years,

01:19:31it's just living on its own.

01:19:34Right.

01:19:34But that's what actually Buddha was teaching us to do.

01:19:38So that's kind of taking the power of stepping back

01:19:41and observing it as something as you build kind of an external observer

01:19:46of what's going on.

01:19:48And that's the question is like,

01:19:53is it only the organ which is inside of us

01:19:57or it's also something...

01:19:59something outside

01:20:00that is bigger than us. And this is the question that I don't think we can so easily answer.

01:20:06Is it, what is, like, then we come to the question what is consciousness? Because this is something that gets on the way to answer this question.

01:20:16And that's the biggest question in the world, I think, which this guy is trying to solve.

01:20:21Well, you know, when you were talking about getting it on your own through mindfulness meditation practice, right?

01:20:29It's still only you interfering with your own organs. So it's like, for me, it's almost like maybe you are again tricking yourself because it's the same thing.

01:20:38But if you're creating the machine, which does externally, that's for sure you're taking control of the organ, right?

01:20:47Because you're interfering in something that you have not tapped into in thousands of years.

01:20:54One frame on this is that it's not about taking control and interfering.

01:21:00It's about preventing the conscious mind from taking control and interfering.

01:21:06In Shinzen's frame, there's this sort of wave propagation that's happening through the subconscious.

01:21:13And that can get log jammed, as he said.

01:21:17In a vote.

01:21:17the waves can interfere or if things are working well then one wave stops and another wave starts

01:21:24and there isn't this turbulence but then um uh the conscious mind um at least sort of the modern

01:21:32conscious mind trained as it is for modern life uh it's very analytical and says hmm what's what's

01:21:39going on there and reaches its hand down and tries to grab things and muddies the water creates

01:21:45turbulence and um that's the the thing that i wouldn't necessarily say it's new but it's made

01:21:55worse by modern life and uh basically instead of the frame of trying to take control of the brain

01:22:04and interfere with it it's just about making the conscious mind not do that to the subconscious

01:22:12mind and making them sort of

01:22:14um

01:22:15flow together

01:22:18by external sure influence it i mean his his frame was hopefully this also

01:22:27uh drives uh neuroplasticity which lets you get better at this as time goes on and then you don't

01:22:35need the external thing eventually how i see it it's kind of uh you're training your mind to

01:22:44evolve and to be able to do more and more and to be able to do more and to be able to do more and to

01:22:45improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and to improve and

01:23:15for the society while doing that or you're becoming like worse and then it's the question

01:23:21because if you get to the research of the people who are long-term meditators they don't say that

01:23:27they don't kind of describe it as something that they build so they can they say that there is just

01:23:34the processes going on and they observe themselves as a bundle of the processes so there is even like

01:23:42the sense if you talk with transactions and longer he will say that the sense of self disappears so

01:23:47there is just you know lines of the processes so and that's that's the point that if you for

01:23:55example can can make it faster the progress faster then that's kind of a new evolution of the human

01:24:01being when we can reach this level yeah as you say I mean there's this frame of this is something

01:24:09that you build and

01:24:12there's this this criticism that frame called spiritual materialism that you're you're building

01:24:18something and then you'll be protective of it and yeah it's just another trap so the question is how

01:24:30not to fall into this trap what do you well how do you kind of keep building without how you keep

01:24:36evolving without making yourself into this trap

01:24:40If that was the only trap, it would be good.

01:24:44I mean just working on I mean what philosophers would call your epistemology just trying to see

01:24:52things as they are that that's something that isn't really in the building frame it's just

01:25:00seen clearly frame and that seems to be the engine of everything else too okay or part of it not always Good. Good. Good. Good.

01:25:17So, just to finish a session, a couple of follow-up, what we can do here.

01:25:29Where is our presentation?

01:25:31Oh, uh...